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#1 Iainhol

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:33 AM

I have almost 2 years ED/UCI experience and one of the facilities I work at has a CFRN prep coming up. I decided to sign up for it thinking it would be good networking and good opportunity to learn. My question is should I take the test afterwards? Part of me says it will look good on my résumé, the additional studying will do me well and it would be a good accomplishment - part of me worries that companies would rather you be flying before gaining that cert. What are your thoughts?
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#2 Jwade

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:28 PM

I have almost 2 years ED/UCI experience and one of the facilities I work at has a CFRN prep coming up. I decided to sign up for it thinking it would be good networking and good opportunity to learn. My question is should I take the test afterwards? Part of me says it will look good on my résumé, the additional studying will do me well and it would be a good accomplishment - part of me worries that companies would rather you be flying before gaining that cert. What are your thoughts?



I would go ahead and take it, it won't hurt anything. I am taking the CFRN / CEN / CPEN exams over a 2 day period next month because you get a discount........

Good Luck!
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#3 BrianACNP

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 05:39 PM

I have almost 2 years ED/UCI experience and one of the facilities I work at has a CFRN prep coming up. I decided to sign up for it thinking it would be good networking and good opportunity to learn. My question is should I take the test afterwards? Part of me says it will look good on my résumé, the additional studying will do me well and it would be a good accomplishment - part of me worries that companies would rather you be flying before gaining that cert. What are your thoughts?


Personally, I would NOT take it if you don't have CCT experience....wait until you have an actual CCT job and some experience. If I were an employer looking to hire, I'm not sure how serious I would take someone who takes and passes the CFRN without any CCT experience to back up that certification. I'm not sure it would mean anything to me. Perhaps I'm a traditionalist that way.


Brian
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#4 Jwade

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 05:58 PM

Personally, I would NOT take it if you don't have CCT experience....wait until you have an actual CCT job and some experience. If I were an employer looking to hire, I'm not sure how serious I would take someone who takes and passes the CFRN without any CCT experience to back up that certification. I'm not sure it would mean anything to me. Perhaps I'm a traditionalist that way.


Brian



Is it any different than when an RN goes and challenges the state Paramedic exam and now calls themselves a paramedic?
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#5 Carpe Diem

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:36 PM

Is it any different than when an RN goes and challenges the state Paramedic exam and now calls themselves a paramedic?


I agree with Brian, and for the same reasons. Anyone can read a book and regurgitate it. The examinations should stand for something. It should stand for the knowledge obviously, but more importantly the experience that the certification should stand for.

It also is no different when an RN challenges the state Paramedic and calls themselves a "Medic," in my humble opinion only. The phrases "Paper Medic" or "Patch Medic" have been used before on this site....

Let's flip the question on end and see if it still holds up- Which would you rather have: A brilliant nurse with years of experience in a high acuity/ volume ICU/ED/ or Flight with no certifications, or a nurse with no experience or cursory experience but with a CCRN, CFRN, CEN, CPEN?

lainhol, there have been previous threads regarding your question in years previous. Perhaps you will find more perspective from them.

I'd take the class, for sure. Education is to your patient's benefit and to yours as well. I didn't take my CFRN until I actually worked in CCT, not because "I wasn't ready for the test." My reasons for this is because I didn't want to be held to the same standard as a seasoned Flight RN when applying for a job. If you're a CFRN, then you're a CFRN and I will hold you to the same standards as someone who has worked in the environment. Just food for thought...

Good luck! You will get there. You are on the right path!

-CD
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Kris


#6 BrianACNP

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:21 PM

I agree with Brian, and for the same reasons. Anyone can read a book and regurgitate it. The examinations should stand for something. It should stand for the knowledge obviously, but more importantly the experience that the certification should stand for.

It also is no different when an RN challenges the state Paramedic and calls themselves a "Medic," in my humble opinion only. The phrases "Paper Medic" or "Patch Medic" have been used before on this site....

Let's flip the question on end and see if it still holds up- Which would you rather have: A brilliant nurse with years of experience in a high acuity/ volume ICU/ED/ or Flight with no certifications, or a nurse with no experience or cursory experience but with a CCRN, CFRN, CEN, CPEN?

lainhol, there have been previous threads regarding your question in years previous. Perhaps you will find more perspective from them.

I'd take the class, for sure. Education is to your patient's benefit and to yours as well. I didn't take my CFRN until I actually worked in CCT, not because "I wasn't ready for the test." My reasons for this is because I didn't want to be held to the same standard as a seasoned Flight RN when applying for a job. If you're a CFRN, then you're a CFRN and I will hold you to the same standards as someone who has worked in the environment. Just food for thought...

Good luck! You will get there. You are on the right path!

-CD


Yeah, I agree with CD. I'm an old school medic......was an EMT prior to becoming an RN but advanced my EMS education afterwards....the good ole' fashion way....in the classroom.

I do not agree with RNs taking a paramedic test without the classroom education.

Brian
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#7 Jwade

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:09 PM

I agree with Brian, and for the same reasons. Anyone can read a book and regurgitate it. The examinations should stand for something. It should stand for the knowledge obviously, but more importantly the experience that the certification should stand for.

It also is no different when an RN challenges the state Paramedic and calls themselves a "Medic," in my humble opinion only. The phrases "Paper Medic" or "Patch Medic" have been used before on this site....

Let's flip the question on end and see if it still holds up- Which would you rather have: A brilliant nurse with years of experience in a high acuity/ volume ICU/ED/ or Flight with no certifications, or a nurse with no experience or cursory experience but with a CCRN, CFRN, CEN, CPEN?

lainhol, there have been previous threads regarding your question in years previous. Perhaps you will find more perspective from them.

I'd take the class, for sure. Education is to your patient's benefit and to yours as well. I didn't take my CFRN until I actually worked in CCT, not because "I wasn't ready for the test." My reasons for this is because I didn't want to be held to the same standard as a seasoned Flight RN when applying for a job. If you're a CFRN, then you're a CFRN and I will hold you to the same standards as someone who has worked in the environment. Just food for thought...

Good luck! You will get there. You are on the right path!

-CD



So, if i follow your logic to it's inevitable conclusion, the nurse who has no experience and a bunch of certifications was hired straight out of school?

In theory, RN's should not be hired unless they have at least 3-5 years of the ICU / ED experience, would you not agree? So, to say, just because he would be a new CFRN without much flight time, but, SHOULD be a seasoned ICU / ED nurse regardless, I am not sure why that does not apply?

Let's flip it around again. I am technically a " New " nurse, but, i have 10+ years of solid CCT doing Rotor / Fixed ( over 1000+ flights combined) / Ground working in progressive systems with equal responsibility. I took the FP-C after a few years of flying, Should i be precluded from taking the CFRN exam because I am 1. a " New nurse" and 2. have only been flying as a nurse for a few weeks now?

I also agree RN's have no business being a paramedic without the proper education and time..........
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#8 BrianACNP

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:16 PM

So, if i follow your logic to it's inevitable conclusion, the nurse who has no experience and a bunch of certifications was hired straight out of school?

In theory, RN's should not be hired unless they have at least 3-5 years of the ICU / ED experience, would you not agree? So, to say, just because he would be a new CFRN without much flight time, but, SHOULD be a seasoned ICU / ED nurse regardless, I am not sure why that does not apply?

Let's flip it around again. I am technically a " New " nurse, but, i have 10+ years of solid CCT doing Rotor / Fixed ( over 1000+ flights combined) / Ground working in progressive systems with equal responsibility. I took the FP-C after a few years of flying, Should i be precluded from taking the CFRN exam because I am 1. a " New nurse" and 2. have only been flying as a nurse for a few weeks now?

I also agree RN's have no business being a paramedic without the proper education and time..........


First, he said no experience OR cursory experience. So if you want to take him word for word, then the cursory experience would be 3-5 years.

But there is a bigger point than the word-for-word. Do you want to hire someone who has great experience and expertise to back up that experience (with/without certifications) or do you want to hire someone with the minimum amount of experience and the alphabet soup?

I would take the former.

Brian
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#9 Carpe Diem

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:12 PM

Brian, thanks for fielding Jwade's questions. Took the words out of my mouth.

In an effort to keep this constructive to the original question and not go off on tangents, I will try to answer your questions concisely.

So, if i follow your logic to it's inevitable conclusion, the nurse who has no experience and a bunch of certifications was hired straight out of school? No, I was trying to convey that a nurse with actual valid experience and exposure is more valuable than one who has read some books and taken some tests, but has no idea what a sick pt even looks like, much less knows what to do with it IMHO. The "i'm not a flight nurse, but I did sleep at a holiday inn" theory.

In theory, RN's should not be hired unless they have at least 3-5 years of the ICU / ED experience, would you not agree? I would agree So, to say, just because he would be a new CFRN without much flight time, but, SHOULD be a seasoned ICU / ED nurse regardless, I am not sure why that does not apply? In regard to the OP's particular situation, he would be a new CFRN with NO CCT experience and less than 2 years experience in ED. So, with that, he would not be as strong a candidate as someone with more years experience in ED/ICU and no CFRN, IMHO

Let's flip it around again. I am technically a " New " nurse, but, i have 10+ years of solid CCT doing Rotor / Fixed ( over 1000+ flights combined) / Ground working in progressive systems with equal responsibility. I took the FP-C after a few years of flying, Should i be precluded from taking the CFRN exam because I am 1. a " New nurse" and 2. have only been flying as a nurse for a few weeks now? No, you are working in CCT currently as a RN, and you also have experience in CCT as a paramedic which is absolutely of value. I too had CCT experience as a medic, but did not take the CFRN until I actually flew as a RN. Also, your medical career is longer than your time as a RN, so you would be an outlier in terms of other RN's within your peer group. What I was trying to explain to the OP was if I were an individual with less than 2 years in ED, I wouldn't want flight employers to compare me to seasoned flight staff by identifying myself as a board certified flight nurse. By doing that, I would be saying, "here I am, I'm ready, hit me with anything you have, I've been there and done that." They would hold him to that standard. Versus I'm a solid ED RN, I'm here to learn a new role and be challenged in by this new environment. Feel free to challenge my knowledge of medicine in an ED environment. It's nice if he happens to have Flight clinical knowledge, but no employer is expecting that from a new hire with no CCT experience.

I also agree RN's have no business being a paramedic without the proper education and time..........


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Kris


#10 Jwade

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:20 PM

Brian, thanks for fielding Jwade's questions. Took the words out of my mouth.

In an effort to keep this constructive to the original question and not go off on tangents, I will try to answer your questions concisely.



Fair enough. Thank you for the clarification. I absolutely agree with your thoughts. I just could not quite ascertain your true intent before.......


I think he should absolutely take the CFRN review course, cannot hurt, and he could learn quite a bit.........It's a tough call on the exam i guess, some people will see it as being aggressive and seeking to better themselves and others, will look down upon a person taking it before they have experience. Double edged sword for sure.... Especially when trying to make themselves stand out from their peers in landing an interview. There are many many programs out there, which will just toss the application if it does not have CFRN or FP-C on it to begin with......Right or wrong, it is reality of the industry today........

Thanks again for clarifying.
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#11 ForeverLearning

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:43 AM

I agree with Brian, and for the same reasons. Anyone can read a book and regurgitate it. The examinations should stand for something. It should stand for the knowledge obviously, but more importantly the experience that the certification should stand for.


Let's not get ahead of ourselves here, not everyone can read a book and apply the principles to answer questions. This takes time, commitment and self discipline to sit and study the material and understand concepts. If this was so easy everyone would have credit by exam RN license, Bachelors and Masters degrees and all the alphabet soup to go along with it. Not every question is a basic recall question, some require you to apply the material and interpret information.


Let's put FP-C exam aside, and say a guy self studied no medical school education and scores USMLE Step 1 >240 to say this guy just regurgitating a book is ridiculous. I am not saying this guy can clearly practice medicine, but you cannot deny the work that was put into it and obviously some sort of comprehension of material.

Why is a medic who has no CCT experience who self studies and pays out of his pocket and gets a certification all of a sudden regurgitating a book? Do you guys feel threatened that any medic can take FP-C and pass it (or CFRN for nurses) that you have to bring up experience? If anyone can take FP-C/CFRN and pass it by regurgitating the material what does it say about the certification?
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#12 BrianACNP

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:18 AM

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here, not everyone can read a book and apply the principles to answer questions. This takes time, commitment and self discipline to sit and study the material and understand concepts. If this was so easy everyone would have credit by exam RN license, Bachelors and Masters degrees and all the alphabet soup to go along with it. Not every question is a basic recall question, some require you to apply the material and interpret information.


Let's put FP-C exam aside, and say a guy self studied no medical school education and scores USMLE Step 1 >240 to say this guy just regurgitating a book is ridiculous. I am not saying this guy can clearly practice medicine, but you cannot deny the work that was put into it and obviously some sort of comprehension of material.

Why is a medic who has no CCT experience who self studies and pays out of his pocket and gets a certification all of a sudden regurgitating a book? Do you guys feel threatened that any medic can take FP-C and pass it (or CFRN for nurses) that you have to bring up experience? If anyone can take FP-C/CFRN and pass it by regurgitating the material what does it say about the certification?


Ok....I had some difficulty following this post.....seemed somewhat contradictory.

First, don't even attempt to put medical school into this conversation......totally out in left field and not even relevant to this conversation.

Second, not sure where the defensiveness related to FP-C came from. Wasn't really mentioned in this thread since the thread's about a nurse taking the CFRN. The only mention of paramedic is John's comment of discussing the issue of nurses challenging the paramedic exam.

Third, no one here feels threatened about someone taking a test. In my experience of hiring and onboarding, I'm here to say that having a bunch of letters by itself doesn't mean anything....it does mean something in the context of education AND experience. So, for me, having CFRN or FP-C without the appropriate CCT experience doesn't mean as much.....it means someone can test and pass an exam. Don't kid yourself, a good test taker can pass these exams.

Brian
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#13 ForeverLearning

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:33 AM

Ok....I had some difficulty following this post.....seemed somewhat contradictory.

First, don't even attempt to put medical school into this conversation......totally out in left field and not even relevant to this conversation.

Second, not sure where the defensiveness related to FP-C came from. Wasn't really mentioned in this thread since the thread's about a nurse taking the CFRN. The only mention of paramedic is John's comment of discussing the issue of nurses challenging the paramedic exam.

Third, no one here feels threatened about someone taking a test. In my experience of hiring and onboarding, I'm here to say that having a bunch of letters by itself doesn't mean anything....it does mean something in the context of education AND experience. So, for me, having CFRN or FP-C without the appropriate CCT experience doesn't mean as much.....it means someone can test and pass an exam. Don't kid yourself, a good test taker can pass these exams.

Brian


My point being FP-C, CFRN, Calculus, Physics, Step 1 etc. all these exams can be done without formal education or experience. If one devotes right amount of time to studying the material which in my opinion takes some work, on the other hand if the exam is so easy that anyone can just walk in and take it without even studying for it what does it say about said credentials?

Only in EMS experience takes precedence over education.
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#14 BrianACNP

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:37 AM

My point being FP-C, CFRN, Calculus, Physics, Step 1 etc. all these exams can be done without formal education or experience. If one devotes right amount of time to studying the material which in my opinion takes some work, on the other hand if the exam is so easy that anyone can just walk in and take it without even studying for it what does it say about said credentials?

Only in EMS experience takes precedence over education.


Respectfully, I totally disagree with your last statement.

Brian
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#15 ForeverLearning

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:45 AM

Respectfully, I totally disagree with your last statement.

Brian


How many ground/Hems services do you that will take a a new medic 1-2 years with BS in Paramedicine over GED/HS diploma with 5+ years of experience?

Or better yet post a job offering for Medic that has BS degree requirement and not X amount of years.

and


Personally, I would NOT take it if you don't have CCT experience....wait until you have an actual CCT job and some experience.



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#16 Iainhol

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:35 PM

After waiting for a reply this thread sure did heat up yesterday. My goal for obtaining a CFRN isn't to suggest I have comparable skills to someone with flight experience, but to suggest a commitment to education and validate my claim that flight nursing has been my longterm aspiration and not some fleeting idea.
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#17 USDalum97

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:54 PM

After waiting for a reply this thread sure did heat up yesterday. My goal for obtaining a CFRN isn't to suggest I have comparable skills to someone with flight experience, but to suggest a commitment to education and validate my claim that flight nursing has been my longterm aspiration and not some fleeting idea.


I say go for it. Take the test.

It is what you do after you pass the test that matters. If I were you, I wouldn't go around telling everyone that I was a certified flight nurse. It does lead people to assume more about your actual experience than they should. Whether that is your fault or their's is a debate for another time.

As for some of the other responses, I agree that someone with limited experience and a CFRN should not be hired before someone with 10 years of critical care experience and no CFRN. However, someone with limited critical care experience and NO CFRN wouldn't get hired either...so what's the difference if you have it or not? You won't get hired on the cert alone, nor should you, that's not what it's for.

I presume you are spending some money on the review course. If you have an opportunity to take the test shortly after, that's the best time, IMO. Then, put the cert in your back pocket, get some experience, and carry on with your career and aspirations.

If a hiring manager were to look at your résumé 5 years from now and see 5-7 years of experience and the CFRN cert and infer that somehow you were not worthy to have the CFRN because you took it early on, shame on them.

The test validates knowledge, not experience. From astana.org "Transport nurses need a mechanism by which they can be properly credentialed to validate a knowledge base essential for transport nursing practice. It is a standard by which employers and regulatory bodies may view practitioners, and will verify to consumers, a specified knowledge base." Again, nothing about experience or ability is mentioned. I do not believe the certification validates ability or even the application of the knowledge.

Good luck!
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#18 BrianACNP

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:43 AM

How many ground/Hems services do you that will take a a new medic 1-2 years with BS in Paramedicine over GED/HS diploma with 5+ years of experience?

Or better yet post a job offering for Medic that has BS degree requirement and not X amount of years.

and


You said that "only in EMS does experience take precedence over education". My disagreement is that experience and education are equally important for ALL disciplines.

Brian
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#19 ForeverLearning

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:04 AM

After waiting for a reply this thread sure did heat up yesterday. My goal for obtaining a CFRN isn't to suggest I have comparable skills to someone with flight experience, but to suggest a commitment to education and validate my claim that flight nursing has been my longterm aspiration and not some fleeting idea.


If your goal is to obtain CFRN by all means attend the class, obtain reading material, and test. I would imagine people teaching the class would offer some guidance and pertinent advice. I think anyone who takes initiative and spends personal funds on education and career progression is a person who has goals and is driven.

To me it's inconceivable that one can read all the material, attend the course, apply the concepts and pass the exam and not come out from the experience without learning a thing.

Hold yourself to a higher standard.
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#20 Macgyver

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:14 AM

I find it interesting that the CFRN & CTRN do not require any clinical experience but the CPEN does...
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