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#21 old school

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:23 PM

Dude,

Did you even bother to read what he wrote? Calling someone a fool, asking him if he is " talking the talk and walking the walk".......

He said the answers were CAMTS for gods sake.......How freaking laughable is that idea........Let's pick an organization who self-invented, has no regulatory authority, has no oversight, and make their own rules.......Sounds a lot like Mitt Romney's campaign theme......We all know how well that worked out for Romney / Rove et al........ B)

It was disrespectful to make so many assumptions........and make the statements he did......I think surviving a horrific helicopter crash is more than walking the walk in my book.......The fact Mike still contributes here says it all!

We can agree to disagree now and save the tit for tat, since we rarely agree on anything.

Granted he did apologize in advance, however, he could have just not made the assumptions in the first place.

JW


I wouldn't have felt compelled to interject, had I not read what was written. And while I may not agree with everything in his post, there was nothing that appeared to me to be directed towards MSDELTA as a personal insult. Therefore, again, nothing that requires "a huge apology".

There was something along the lines of "you are a fool IF....", but that came across to me as a general statement and not directed towards MSDELTA specifically.....it was actually verbiage very similar to what you frequently use in your posts when you are "just telling us like it is".

And John, onearm certainly isn't the only one on this forum who makes assumptions from time to time....

But we all thank you for taking on the role of Arbiter of What Constitutes Requiring an Apology on Flightweb (AWCRAF).
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#22 Jwade

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:08 PM

I wouldn't have felt compelled to interject, had I not read what was written. And while I may not agree with everything in his post, there was nothing that appeared to me to be directed towards MSDELTA as a personal insult. Therefore, again, nothing that requires "a huge apology".

There was something along the lines of "you are a fool IF....", but that came across to me as a general statement and not directed towards MSDELTA specifically.....it was actually verbiage very similar to what you frequently use in your posts when you are "just telling us like it is".

And John, onearm certainly isn't the only one on this forum who makes assumptions from time to time....

But we all thank you for taking on the role of Arbiter of What Constitutes Requiring an Apology on Flightweb (AWCRAF).



Typical, Having to resort to ad hominem attacks since you are unable to put forth a better argument. :rolleyes:

You called surviving a horrific helicopter crash with terrible injuries an "unfortunate event"..........Way to marginalize what happened to him........Stepping off a curb and breaking your ankle is an unfortunate event, living through a machine that fell out of the sky qualifies as a bit more in my book. I would love to see you tell one of my closest friends who survived their tail rotor separating from the aircraft at 800ft agl , crew member dying, more terrible injuries, survivors guilt, that it was just an unfortunate event........I would pay to see that actually......

You are entitled to your own opinion, but, you are NOT entitled to your own facts. He had his facts wrong, end of story:

Time to Move on Old School, you are way behind the 8 ball on this one.......

JW
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#23 onearmwonder

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:08 PM

I wasn't calling him specifically a fool. Sorry if I didn't clarify that. I'm obviously not an eloquent or even decent writer. So I probably shouldn't post on here. Not sure... But I am one of you and I do have a tremendous stake in this. I want to go home too, but maybe it's the rookies like me that need to help change our pathetic culture. This dialogue still needs to happen. MS Delta I truly like what you have to say most of the time. I think I misunderstood where you coming and going with your statement. Again my apologies.
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#24 MSDeltaFlt

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

We are all here to express our opinions; usually to learn, but not necessarily always. I was raised with the belief that "opinions are lim e buttholes. Everyone's got one and most of them stink". I voice mine quite often. I may offend some every now and then. But I am by no means offended, onearm. And even if I was, I'm 42 years old. I'm a grown man. Which means I'm grown enough to get over it. Post away, brother.
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Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear -- Mark Twain

#25 Jwade

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

I wasn't calling him specifically a fool. Sorry if I didn't clarify that. I'm obviously not an eloquent or even decent writer. So I probably shouldn't post on here. Not sure... But I am one of you and I do have a tremendous stake in this. I want to go home too, but maybe it's the rookies like me that need to help change our pathetic culture. This dialogue still needs to happen. MS Delta I truly like what you have to say most of the time. I think I misunderstood where you coming and going with your statement. Again my apologies.



OneArm,

YES, you should absolutely keep posting on this forum. Yes, the culture needs to change, however, organizations like CAMTS are not going to to be responsible for this. It has to start with the administration wether that is by choice or by regulatory requirements, this is where it will come from. CAMTS, while a great idea in theory, the practical application has done very little to make a dent in organizational culture or accident statistics. CAMTS needs a complete organizational revision from the ground up to make it a more effective organization.

If you want to go home every shift, then make sure you have the balls to say no when the situation calls for it. Educate yourself on weather, Can you honestly say you can immediately tell the difference between 5 miles visibility and 800 ft ceilings to 2.5 miles and 500 ft ceilings? Just an example, but, it could mean punching into a cloud bank for you and you better pray to god your pilot is PROFICIENT at flying on instruments. I can tell you, very few VFR pilots are proficient. Which leads to one of the original statements by the pilot who wrote the article.....The EMS companies are complicit! Why do you think that is?

As MSDelta stated, do everything in your power to go home.........Go read the NTSB reports for the last 10 years, all it would have taken is for 1 crew member to say, im not getting in that aircraft, and more people would be alive today......You can look at the Wisconsin crash, memphis crash, texas crash, Weather, weather, weather............

You have to be prepared to walk away from the job at any time. This mentality has kept me alive the last 11 years, yes, you will piss some people off, yes, you might get hauled into the Program Directors office a time or two, yes, you might have to explain yourself, yes, you might even get written up, all better than being dead..........

Keep up the fight, don't take things personal on this forum, we need more young people like you to keep the dialogue going, learn as much as you can, some of us are safety fanatics, and for good reason, we have seen too many of our friends die.

Vigilance always.

JW
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#26 old school

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 06:07 PM

Typical, Having to resort to ad hominem attacks since you are unable to put forth a better argument. :rolleyes:

You called surviving a horrific helicopter crash with terrible injuries an "unfortunate event"..........Way to marginalize what happened to him........Stepping off a curb and breaking your ankle is an unfortunate event, living through a machine that fell out of the sky qualifies as a bit more in my book. I would love to see you tell one of my closest friends who survived their tail rotor separating from the aircraft at 800ft agl , crew member dying, more terrible injuries, survivors guilt, that it was just an unfortunate event........I would pay to see that actually......

You are entitled to your own opinion, but, you are NOT entitled to your own facts. He had his facts wrong, end of story:

Time to Move on Old School, you are way behind the 8 ball on this one.......

JW


OK, John....

You appointed yourself authority & expert on what was acceptable - like you often do - and I disagreed with you and called you on it. That's all that happened.

I didn't marginalize anything, and the only ad-hominem in this exchange is your thinly-veiled suggestion that you'd like to see violence used against me.

There's really no need to get your little panties all knotted up, or to try to change the focus of the discussion by disingenuously suggesting that I don't have empathy just because I Don't Use All Caps and the same emotional verbiage that you do.
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#27 Wally

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 07:19 PM

JWade said:
"Educate yourself on weather, Can you honestly say you can immediately tell the difference between 5 miles visibility and 800 ft ceilings to 2.5 miles and 500 ft ceilings? Just an example, but, it could mean punching into a cloud bank for you and you better pray to god your pilot is PROFICIENT at flying on instruments. I can tell you, very few VFR pilots are proficient."

I don't know about "immediately tell the difference...", but it wouldn't take long. I'd have a problem (especially at night) but "immediate" wouldn't be part of the answer. In fact, I think "Immediate" is the first part of a lot of wrong answers. When one needs to make a decision as would be required if you are below minimums- which I would be, right is better than quick. 2.5 miles is a minute or so en route, even if that ends with something real hard at 2.5 miles. Have a reasonable plan, execute it safely but don't be hasty, as "immediate" implies. There's worlds of difference between "weather below minimums" and immediate hazard. It all depends on what you're doing- 500 & 2 1/2 is good when it's on an ILS with 200 & 3/4 minimums.

Think ahead, plan, and allow for error. Always have a way out, and use it.
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#28 Jwade

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:07 PM

JWade said:
"Educate yourself on weather, Can you honestly say you can immediately tell the difference between 5 miles visibility and 800 ft ceilings to 2.5 miles and 500 ft ceilings? Just an example, but, it could mean punching into a cloud bank for you and you better pray to god your pilot is PROFICIENT at flying on instruments. I can tell you, very few VFR pilots are proficient."

I don't know about "immediately tell the difference...", but it wouldn't take long. I'd have a problem (especially at night) but "immediate" wouldn't be part of the answer. In fact, I think "Immediate" is the first part of a lot of wrong answers. When one needs to make a decision as would be required if you are below minimums- which I would be, right is better than quick. 2.5 miles is a minute or so en route, even if that ends with something real hard at 2.5 miles. Have a reasonable plan, execute it safely but don't be hasty, as "immediate" implies. There's worlds of difference between "weather below minimums" and immediate hazard. It all depends on what you're doing- 500 & 2 1/2 is good when it's on an ILS with 200 & 3/4 minimums.

Think ahead, plan, and allow for error. Always have a way out, and use it.



Wally,

1. You are a commercial HEMS pilot, My post was not meant for people with your high level of expertise. It was meant for the newbie crew member who might think he or she should not be getting in the helicopter, but, is struggling to voice his or her opinion.

2. It was strictly meant for those flying VFR not IFR.

3. Immediately might have been a strong term, but, I think back to the Memphis crash, when the pilot stated he and the crew were going to try and beat the weather back to base so as to not ground the aircraft. So, in a situation like that, a crew member might need to immediately make an assessment, so, that is where my train of thought was going on that point. I absolutely agree with what you said, always have a plan and a back up plan....When I flying my plane, I am constantly assessing the situation and where it will be in the next 10 - 20 -30 minutes etc.......

4. Flying below minimums happens........with more and more regularity...........Clearly, not every pilot gives themselves a way out.......

Good Discussion.

JW
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#29 Jwade

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:19 PM

OK, John....

You appointed yourself authority & expert on what was acceptable - like you often do - and I disagreed with you and called you on it. That's all that happened.

I didn't marginalize anything, and the only ad-hominem in this exchange is your thinly-veiled suggestion that you'd like to see violence used against me.

There's really no need to get your little panties all knotted up, or to try to change the focus of the discussion by disingenuously suggesting that I don't have empathy just because I Don't Use All Caps and the same emotional verbiage that you do.



Wow, I guess you proved yourself right, there are others who make assumptions on this forum. Congrats!

I don't condone violence in any form unless well deserved, and I certainly don't take anything personal enough on this forum that I would even remotely think that in the first place.......Seriously dude, life is too short to take everything so personal.

I don't make thinly veiled suggestions, i speak my mind and nobody has to guess what i am thinking. I was inferring to your marginalization of a violent accident. What i was speaking about is I would literally pay money to hear the ensuing conversation and would love to hear you offer a rebuttal or more likely a lack there of....

Bottom line, you marginalized a highly personal incident, got called out for it, and did not like it......Same old story with you.

I have not once tried to change the focus of the conversation, I have answered and made suggestions in just about every post.

Move on dude.....

JW
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#30 old school

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 09:04 PM

Wow, I guess you proved yourself right, there are others who make assumptions on this forum. Congrats!

I don't condone violence in any form unless well deserved, and I certainly don't take anything personal enough on this forum that I would even remotely think that in the first place.......Seriously dude, life is too short to take everything so personal.

I don't make thinly veiled suggestions, i speak my mind and nobody has to guess what i am thinking. I was inferring to your marginalization of a violent accident. What i was speaking about is I would literally pay money to hear the ensuing conversation and would love to hear you offer a rebuttal or more likely a lack there of....

Bottom line, you marginalized a highly personal incident, got called out for it, and did not like it......Same old story with you.

I have not once tried to change the focus of the conversation, I have answered and made suggestions in just about every post.

Move on dude.....

JW


Back peddling must be tough.

Maybe if you had more effective control of your emotions and didnt try to bully everyone you wouldn't get into these situations? Just a thought.

I think you are right about 1 thing, it's time to move on.
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#31 BrianACNP

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 10:26 PM

Back peddling must be tough.

Maybe if you had more effective control of your emotions and didnt try to bully everyone you wouldn't get into these situations? Just a thought.

I think you are right about 1 thing, it's time to move on.


As moderator I agree to one thing you both said.....MOVE ON!

Let's keep the conversation moving and less about ourselves on this forum, please.

Thank you,

Brian
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#32 Wally

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:09 AM

Wally,

1. You are a commercial HEMS pilot, My post was not meant for people with your high level of expertise. It was meant for the newbie crew member who might think he or she should not be getting in the helicopter, but, is struggling to voice his or her opinion.

2. It was strictly meant for those flying VFR not IFR.

3. Immediately might have been a strong term, but, I think back to the Memphis crash, when the pilot stated he and the crew were going to try and beat the weather back to base so as to not ground the aircraft. So, in a situation like that, a crew member might need to immediately make an assessment, so, that is where my train of thought was going on that point. I absolutely agree with what you said, always have a plan and a back up plan....When I flying my plane, I am constantly assessing the situation and where it will be in the next 10 - 20 -30 minutes etc.......

4. Flying below minimums happens........with more and more regularity...........Clearly, not every pilot gives themselves a way out.......

Good Discussion.

JW


Point is, it all depends on what you're doing and how it fits in the plan. 200 & 3/4 is good if you're there and all you have to do is land. Don't get excited because it's not 1500 and 5, land the freakin' aircraft, or whatever you need to do to be safe/survive. Observation- recent A021 are comfortably above safety that being below mins isn't necessarily an immediate life threatening hazard! When it happens deal with it and enjoy a long career wishing you had been able to continue those flights. It is better to be on the ground wishing you were flying...

Memphis is deeper than this will be, but demonstrates that the closer you get the harder it is to turn back.

But what really motivates the response is #4. Where does the impression come from that HEMS pilots are flying below minimums "more and more"? I have not seen any data that indicates that. It seems emotional reaction to a recent unfortunate event that did indeed have a weather aspect, even if the weather was causal in that event, 1 point doesn't make a line.
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#33 Jwade

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:28 PM

Point is, it all depends on what you're doing and how it fits in the plan. 200 & 3/4 is good if you're there and all you have to do is land. Don't get excited because it's not 1500 and 5, land the freakin' aircraft, or whatever you need to do to be safe/survive. Observation- recent A021 are comfortably above safety that being below mins isn't necessarily an immediate life threatening hazard! When it happens deal with it and enjoy a long career wishing you had been able to continue those flights. It is better to be on the ground wishing you were flying...

Memphis is deeper than this will be, but demonstrates that the closer you get the harder it is to turn back.

But what really motivates the response is #4. Where does the impression come from that HEMS pilots are flying below minimums "more and more"? I have not seen any data that indicates that. It seems emotional reaction to a recent unfortunate event that did indeed have a weather aspect, even if the weather was causal in that event, 1 point doesn't make a line.



Wally,

You are correct, there is not a lot of empirical evidence to support my assertion: Only years of anecdotal personal experience and reading all of the NTSB reports for the last 10 years while delving deep into the statistics gained from those reports.

I was also not only speaking about weather minimums. I think one could reasonably state the Recent Classic Lifeguard Wire Strike while, per the Program Director admittedly they were screwing off, was below company minimums required for the cruise phase of flight in which to be able to " See & Avoid"..........Or you could make the case for some of the fixed wing crashes who were below published MEA's and parked them into the side of a mountain.

You are right, 1 point does not make a line, however, when you start getting enough dots, it's easier to start making those lines.

Can you qualify your Memphis comment for me. Memphis is pretty clear cut, Known convective activity along intended route area, Known conversations from the pilot prior to departure back to base, Obviously, all 3 of them got in the helicopter and nobody broke the chain that was forming.

I am really interested to hear your view on this, what is the take home lesson you alluded to in your previous post from this accident. Obviously hindsight is 20 / 20 but, since you are a professional HEMS pilot, what do you do if your PIC of the Memphis ship?

Here is the NTSB LINK for the Memphis Accident. Very interesting reading from all the pilot interviews, especially from the relief pilot who spoke to the PIC right before taking off for base.

NTSB
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#34 insen...

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:23 PM

True story; I once worked with this flight nurse who I actually didn't like too much, but he stated these words of wisdom one afternoon after yet another condescending moment from our resident crash survivor. He said, "you know, I was in a car accident once, but that doesn't make me an expert on car safety."
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"Miserere stultus qui dicit latin." Contemporary French Linguist Insenescence

#35 Jwade

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:12 PM

True story; I once worked with this flight nurse who I actually didn't like too much, but he stated these words of wisdom one afternoon after yet another condescending moment from our resident crash survivor. He said, "you know, I was in a car accident once, but that doesn't make me an expert on car safety."



Not sure i would qualify that statement as valid wisdom by any stretch......

Apples to Oranges comparison. Flawed reasoning and not a valid argument.
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#36 MSDeltaFlt

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:21 PM

True story; I once worked with this flight nurse who I actually didn't like too much, but he stated these words of wisdom one afternoon after yet another condescending moment from our resident crash survivor. He said, "you know, I was in a car accident once, but that doesn't make me an expert on car safety."


Never considered myself an expert on helicopter safety after my singular helicopter crash (at least that's what I was told; still missing a week to this day). I merely express what I have learned about the HEMS culture and the HEMS industry. One thing I've learned about the HEMS culture, and even the industry, is it is run by too many medical people and not nearly enough aviators. You see medical people tend to think that if some is good then more is better. Which is why smaller airframes stay so close to max gross weight because they've got too much @#$& on it. They also (anecdotally mind you) tend tostress the need for bigger and better aircraft.

Now don't get me wrong. Bigger and better are SA-WEEET. However, if they are not flown correctly, they will go down just as easily as any other POS.

The problem with HEMS industry as a whole multi-fold. They're too quick to have knee-jerk reactions, they want and stress more technology without still significantly emphasizing knowledge, skill, technique, and situational awareness. Notto mention the fact that they compete so much that some will "gladly" fly pts that could go by ground for fear of a competing service might take their business away.

The flights are there. We need more aircraft. However, the call VOLUME is not what they say there is. I mean really. Companies aren't going to cover the continental United States in aircraft 15 min apart for 10, maybe 15, medically necessary flights.

Med crews are supposed to be clinicians and educators, patient advocates and student advocates (if you do outreach), not poloticians or salesmen.

As I said earlier. Take care of yourself, take care of your partners, take care of your patients and let the flying or the not flying take care of themselves.
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Mike Hester, RRT/NRP/FP-C
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear -- Mark Twain

#37 insen...

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:42 PM

Not sure i would qualify that statement as valid wisdom by any stretch......

Apples to Oranges comparison. Flawed reasoning and not a valid argument.


The above analysis of the story lacks substance, and exhibits a lack of understanding of the point of the story.

Maybe you'll see what I did there...
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"Miserere stultus qui dicit latin." Contemporary French Linguist Insenescence

#38 flynrn

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:22 PM

I might be missing something on the flightweb, but what I would like to see is the NTSB's final report on the cause of a crash. I think we could take this and learn from it, all of us. The mechanics, pilots, nurses, medics, PD etc etc etc. Sure we grieve from those in our flight family we have lost but I think they would want us to learn from their mistakes or mechanical failures or bad weather decisions or blade icing etc etc etc.

Just sayin
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#39 admin

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:32 PM

I might be missing something on the flightweb, but what I would like to see is the NTSB's final report on the cause of a crash. I think we could take this and learn from it, all of us. The mechanics, pilots, nurses, medics, PD etc etc etc. Sure we grieve from those in our flight family we have lost but I think they would want us to learn from their mistakes or mechanical failures or bad weather decisions or blade icing etc etc etc.

Just sayin


A few years ago, the NTSB publicly released the full investigation dockets for a number of HEMS crashes. These dockets include far more details than are typically included in the NTSB final reports (photos, etc.). You might be interested in those, especially since many of the incidents are very similar to more recent crashes.

CEN09MA019 - October 15, 2008, Aurora, Illinois
CHI08FA128 - May 10, 2008, La Cross, Wisconsin
NYC08FA071 December 30, 2007, Cherokee, Alabama
ANC08FA025 - December 3, 2007, Whittier, Alaska
MIA08MA203 September 27, 2008, District Heights, Maryland
CHI08FA269 August 31, 2008, Greensburg, Indiana
DEN08MA116AB June 29, 2008, Flagstaff, Arizona
DEN08FA101 June 8, 2008, Huntsville, Texas
DFW08FA062 - February 5, 2008, South Padre Island, Texas




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