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#1 Macgyver

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:47 PM

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Below is an excerpt from an anonymous pilot forum board.
Please note the following perspective is very raw and direct.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


"More hand-wringing by medical people:

Here's a thought: All you people pointing fingers and assigning blame, as well as all you others who're chastising them, and calling for prayers for your fallen comrades, really ought to find another way to make a living.

Go back to working on a floor, or in the ER, and stay away from helicopters. Those of us who are professional pilots understand that there are risks associated with the endeavor, and that any day can be our last. There are no guarantees that you're going home at the end of your shift, when your job is to occupy a seat in a machine that's traveling a high speed, hundreds of feet above the ground. Accidents happen in every occupation on the planet, and aviation is no exception.

For many of you, this is the first time in your lives you've gotten to be one of the cool kids. Walking around in your flight suit, catching admiring glances, having people tell you you're a hero . . . And you have no understanding at all of your peril when you climb into your aircraft. You want assurances of your safety. You're naive, and EMS vendors are complicit in your lack of understanding and education. For Christ's sake, there's even a "Survivors Network!" Can you people please get over yourselves?

Stop whining. While you're paralyzed with your existential angst, your pilot is taking a nap. If he's been flying for any real length of time, he's lost many more friends to aircraft accidents than you have; and even though it hurts every time, he learns whatever lesson is there and shows up to work the next day, knowing his number might be up as well."
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Ken BHSc, RN, REMT-P

#2 Merck

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:26 PM

I believe that this perspective is quite valid but doens't capture the spirit of the job where we are.

We have to paramedics and two pilots in our aircraft, rotary (S-76 C+) and fixed-wing (King Air 350s and Citation Encore). Our belief is one that is becoming more and more inclusive. By that I mean that there aren't really 2 pilots and 2 paramedics but rather four team members accomplishing a task.

We have some very difficult flying conditions at times throughout our area and rely on the pilots to see us safely through. At the same time we've evolved into firm believers in crew resource management which I believe has gone a long way to increasing the cooperation between the paramedics and the flight crew (though I'm sure to the pilots it's just answering silly questions half the time but they're good about it).

We've just experienced a changeover is some of our contracted air operators so in some respects the process is starting again but there are already signs that the team philosophy is gearing up.

I do disagree somewhat with the part slamming a memorial to fallen colleagues - I don't think that it is wrong to honour people who die - I think the problem is that the flight crew can get forgotten in the mix which is inexcusable.

We are well aware of the perils of flying. In our history we lost a Learjet years ago with two pilots, two paramedics, and a physician on board - a loss that still resonates in our organization. But to say that in remembering this we are being overly dramatic because we've snapped into reality after being blinded by a shiny helmet or flight suit is ridiculous.

So while I'm sure the above comments pertain to some organizations I submit that, like most generalities, there are times and places that just don't fit into the characterization.

Happy Holidays.


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#3 MSDeltaFlt

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:15 AM

Yup, there are those of us who get in this profession because "we just wanted to fly". Come Monday morning following a fatality we armchair quarterback the whole incident. We offer our condolences. We say this and preach that about any and all shoulda/coulda/wouldas. And we try make ourselves feel better about the choice(s) we made about getting in this industry and even staying after such crashes. This pilot is right. We are quite full of ourselves. Which calls in to question our individual self esteem.

Trust is earned. Faith is given. There is only one pilot I fully trust in this business. That's one more than I need and one less than I want. Me ever fully trusting the one I want is now a non-issue for reasons not needed in this thread. Would I still fly with him? In a hearbeat.

If all you want to do is fly then go get yohr pilot's license. Otherwise do what you're trained to do; which is taking care of patients. And let the flying and not flying take care of themselves.
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Mike Hester, RRT/NRP/FP-C
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear -- Mark Twain

#4 Speed

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

Justhelicopters, really? That place is garbage. I think the guy/girl sounds like an angry old lonely hermit. I belive that post-incident debriefing and work-life services are still around for a reason. Sad attitude, really, maybe even dangerous culture. Sure, a lot of crew members never served at an air station and it's their first flight job, but take them away and you'll be out of service. That's called math. I think healthy discussion, memorials, whatever are better than a bottle of whiskey, drugs, holding your feelings in, taking it out on your family, or insulting people on the internet. I'm guessing he's a pilot, just another reason I'm like come on UAV baby, bring it on fast please. If that hadn't been posted, I couldn't make that statement. But I'm sure people will throw their anger at me as well, oh boo hoo. My name is Mike Williams, I live in Oklahoma City across the street from the OU helipads. Come get me anonymous!
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Mike Williams CCEMT-P/FP-C

#5 elrsmom

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:49 PM

A different perspective.
Rollie provides the condolence book to the families of crash victims.
Firemen and police have grief counselors, I took advantage of that because Air Medical at that time had Rollie, period!
Now you have the Air Chaplains, the Survivor group and Rollie.
I am sorry for the pilot who posted that rant.
He/she carries a lot of anger.
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#6 Mike Mims

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:49 PM

Justhelicopters, really? That place is garbage. I think the guy/girl sounds like an angry old lonely hermit. I belive that post-incident debriefing and work-life services are still around for a reason. Sad attitude, really, maybe even dangerous culture. Sure, a lot of crew members never served at an air station and it's their first flight job, but take them away and you'll be out of service. That's called math. I think healthy discussion, memorials, whatever are better than a bottle of whiskey, drugs, holding your feelings in, taking it out on your family, or insulting people on the internet. I'm guessing he's a pilot, just another reason I'm like come on UAV baby, bring it on fast please. If that hadn't been posted, I couldn't make that statement. But I'm sure people will throw their anger at me as well, oh boo hoo. My name is Mike Williams, I live in Oklahoma City across the street from the OU helipads. Come get me anonymous!

I agree....... kind of the, "get in the back, sit down and shut up!!!" mentality.
If ALL the medical people would do as the poster wrote, he/she would have around 3000 or so RW pilots looking for work. They may have to go back to off-shore runs, sight seeing tours and perhaps some other odd-and-in jobs.

They also seem to have the same relentless protest as the members of the Westboro Baptist Church, Topeka Kansas, when it comes to grieving those killed in the line of duty.

I think we ALL understand and are aware of the dangers involved with HEMS, but there are risks we ACCEPT (i.e., what we already know) versus the risk we TAKE.
I personally am not a risk taker.... Two totally different aspects of risk.

What he/she DOES'T understand is that the decision the make and he/she TAKES that risk, will impact more than just one person.
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Mike Mims

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#7 insen...

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:09 PM

That pilot is a classic example of someone who attempts to gain relevance by trying to diminish the humanity of others.
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"Miserere stultus qui dicit latin." Contemporary French Linguist Insenescence

#8 HEMSLAWS

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:21 AM

I saw this post on JH. Yeah, I go there and sift thru the crap to pick up on what's going on in the industry. There are plenty of internet morons there, but also a lot of level heads. You should be able to pick up on the trolls pretty quick and ignore them, it's not that hard.

That being said.... The JH post sounds a bit like some of the posts I've put up here. Aviation is a dangerous business. I don't have the same attitude about the memorial or post-incident counseling. If you need those things then by all means, get them. My experiences with the loss of fellow aviation folks are we have a memorial service and then get to work finding out what went wrong and either change procedures to prevent future occurrences, or learn what mistakes were made and learn not to make the same ones. Sounds like the guy has been through this process a few (maybe several) times before. Sadly, we accept the deaths as part of the job because aviation accidents almost always involve fatalities. I know what you're going to say, "HEMSLAWS is fatalistic and resigned to dying in an accident." Naw, I just understand that it happens. I intend on coming back from every flight intact. Buuut, I know that circumstances can build during a flight that will utimately end in disaster. I keep an eye on things like that and stop the process before it culminates in my demise.

Sometimes we pilots forget that you medical types are mostly new to aviation and poorly educated as to the real risk level of the job. Whose job is it to educate you about the risks? Pilots? Hell, we accepted that our job was risky long ago. We figured you understood it too when you came on board. I guess that's why some pilots find it curious when the industry (less pilots) is so shocked by a fatal accident. "Yeah, it sucks, but you better get used to it, 'cause it's gonna happen again (and again......)."

I didn't get that the JH poster had a "get in the back, sit down and shut up!!!" mentality. And, I don't think his intent was for all medical types to go do something other than HEMS. He just wants you all to understand the risks and if you don't accept them, then move on. I've said the same thing here as well. And yeah, we understand that the decisions we make affect EVERYONE on the aircraft. That pilots don't understand their actions also carry consequences for the rest of the crew is the most ignorant thing that keeps getting said on this forum. If the HEMS industry were to shut down, I don't think there would be a major problem for the pilots to find new employment. We all did something else before coming to HEMS.

For Speed: You have made the UAV comment before. You might look around for some data on UAV incidents (though it will most likely be near impossible to find). The true UAV accident rate, if it were published, would astound. It's just that people rarely get hurt so you don't hear about them unless, say, they end up in the hands of the Iranians.
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#9 Speed

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:13 PM

For Speed: You have made the UAV comment before. You might look around for some data on UAV incidents (though it will most likely be near impossible to find). The true UAV accident rate, if it were published, would astound. It's just that people rarely get hurt so you don't hear about them unless, say, they end up in the hands of the Iranians.


I am scared to death of motorcycles. Rode on the back of 'em all the time when I was way too young to even be around them; my mother. Growing as a medic I developed a strong fear of them through the images that could only be beat by train vs. ped. My mother knows very well of this. A few years ago when the helicopter accident rate went through the roof, I got scared and left. I spent a couple of years realizing that I had been lucky enough to get the different flying jobs I had through the years, and I missed it. Then one day my mom called me and said she felt bad for keping something from me, but I should know, she had bought herself 2 new Harleys, and she and her new husband and his Harley had been galavanting the country with a bike club. She said that she had watched my grandmother lay in a nursing home and die, and she didn't like it. I thought about what she said and what my life had mostly been about up until then and decided to go back to flying. Not a death wish by any means, but it is what it is.
I am a tech junkie, I believe that technology in things like healthcare, aviation, computers, etc are on the brink of another revolution. I like technology and revolutions. If I were to be injured or killed in a UAV accident, it can only be my fault for deciding to get in the thing. I can save people's lives in a building, or a truck, or a plane; doesn't matter. The style of which I choose to practice my craft is my decision and my fault and my responsibility. When I think about how cool it would be to be the first medic to work on an ambulance UAV in CONUS, it is also right there with the image in my head of it's first lift off with me on board going crazily out of control and smashing into a big ball of fire. It's very rare that anyone asks me for advice, but my answer is always: you only live once. It's not my drive or intent to put human pilot's out of work or say that they can't make good decisions, I just think the UAV's are cool, that's all. B)
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Mike Williams CCEMT-P/FP-C

#10 old school

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:34 PM

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Below is an excerpt from an anonymous pilot forum board.
Please note the following perspective is very raw and direct.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


"More hand-wringing by medical people:

Here's a thought: All you people pointing fingers and assigning blame, as well as all you others who're chastising them, and calling for prayers for your fallen comrades, really ought to find another way to make a living.

Go back to working on a floor, or in the ER, and stay away from helicopters. Those of us who are professional pilots understand that there are risks associated with the endeavor, and that any day can be our last. There are no guarantees that you're going home at the end of your shift, when your job is to occupy a seat in a machine that's traveling a high speed, hundreds of feet above the ground. Accidents happen in every occupation on the planet, and aviation is no exception.

For many of you, this is the first time in your lives you've gotten to be one of the cool kids. Walking around in your flight suit, catching admiring glances, having people tell you you're a hero . . . And you have no understanding at all of your peril when you climb into your aircraft. You want assurances of your safety. You're naive, and EMS vendors are complicit in your lack of understanding and education. For Christ's sake, there's even a "Survivors Network!" Can you people please get over yourselves?

Stop whining. While you're paralyzed with your existential angst, your pilot is taking a nap. If he's been flying for any real length of time, he's lost many more friends to aircraft accidents than you have; and even though it hurts every time, he learns whatever lesson is there and shows up to work the next day, knowing his number might be up as well."


I do agree that the cognitive dissonance that accompanies all the "how could this possibly have happened" that we hear from medical folks every time there is a fatal accident Is rather annoying. Any way you look at it, flying IS inherently more dangerous than working in the ICU, yet many people seem intentionally ignorant to that obvious fact when they get into HEMS.

However, this post is full of the type of machismo that always makes things worse. Resignation on the part of someone who knows better is lazy and cowardly.
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bring it in for the real thing

#11 old school

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:37 PM

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Below is an excerpt from an anonymous pilot forum board.
Please note the following perspective is very raw and direct.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


"More hand-wringing by medical people:

Here's a thought: All you people pointing fingers and assigning blame, as well as all you others who're chastising them, and calling for prayers for your fallen comrades, really ought to find another way to make a living.

Go back to working on a floor, or in the ER, and stay away from helicopters. Those of us who are professional pilots understand that there are risks associated with the endeavor, and that any day can be our last. There are no guarantees that you're going home at the end of your shift, when your job is to occupy a seat in a machine that's traveling a high speed, hundreds of feet above the ground. Accidents happen in every occupation on the planet, and aviation is no exception.

For many of you, this is the first time in your lives you've gotten to be one of the cool kids. Walking around in your flight suit, catching admiring glances, having people tell you you're a hero . . . And you have no understanding at all of your peril when you climb into your aircraft. You want assurances of your safety. You're naive, and EMS vendors are complicit in your lack of understanding and education. For Christ's sake, there's even a "Survivors Network!" Can you people please get over yourselves?

Stop whining. While you're paralyzed with your existential angst, your pilot is taking a nap. If he's been flying for any real length of time, he's lost many more friends to aircraft accidents than you have; and even though it hurts every time, he learns whatever lesson is there and shows up to work the next day, knowing his number might be up as well."


I do agree that the cognitive dissonance that accompanies all the "how could this possibly have happened" that we hear from medical folks every time there is a fatal accident Is rather annoying. Any way you look at it, flying IS inherently more dangerous than working in the ICU, yet many people seem intentionally ignorant to that obvious fact when they get into HEMS.

However, this post is full of the type of machismo that always makes things worse. Resignation on the part of someone who knows better is not "hard" or "courageous"; rather it is lazy and cowardly.
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bring it in for the real thing

#12 Wally

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:30 PM

Justhelicopters, really? That place is garbage. I think the guy/girl sounds like an angry old lonely hermit. I belive that post-incident debriefing and work-life services are still around for a reason. Sad attitude, really, maybe even dangerous culture. Sure, a lot of crew members never served at an air station and it's their first flight job, but take them away and you'll be out of service. That's called math. I think healthy discussion, memorials, whatever are better than a bottle of whiskey, drugs, holding your feelings in, taking it out on your family, or insulting people on the internet. I'm guessing he's a pilot, just another reason I'm like come on UAV baby, bring it on fast please. If that hadn't been posted, I couldn't make that statement. But I'm sure people will throw their anger at me as well, oh boo hoo. My name is Mike Williams, I live in Oklahoma City across the street from the OU helipads. Come get me anonymous!



Mike,
As to UAVs, there's still a "pilot" flying the vehicle but "he" is not there with you. The implication is that code/remote operator is better, perhaps through detachment, lack of distraction? Where do the medical crew and CRM fit into that equation? Will the guys in back be flying the helo through the code, or are you spam in the can?

The post quoted at the head of this thread is a provocative statement designed to do exactly what is happening here. My inference is that the author suffers from a severe attack of machismo and chronic fatalism, aggravated by a basic narcissistic personality. Nobody can measure up to that individual, don't even bother trying...

That said, there are aviator facts underlying the original authors message:
There's no guarantee that the NTSB investigation of any accident will be successful. Whatever happens, it will be delayed a significant portion of my flying life before completed. I can't afford that potentially fatal interval of ignorance, I have to critique and use every fact and applicable inferred condition against my next flight decision. I don't think I am unique in that. Do you want to fly with somebody more passive? I don't.
Aviators deal with human frailty from an entirely different aspect than medical types do (an assumption on my part). Medical screws up, somebody dies. Aviation screws up, everybody dies. I (PIC) have absolute control in that process, you (medical) are essentially passengers and do not- fact- you're not wrestling the controls away from any idiot pilot and landing the helo. An aside- even the most experienced aviator is in the same situation when not at the controls. Consequently, medical lives with mistakes, mine and theirs. I can die of mine. I try to intellectualize my mistakes to be impersonally critiqued, but in the end, how one anticipates your own death is a very personal thing. It's part of an aviator's life. Yep, I can be pretty raw when I go there.
As PIC, I am completely and absolutely responsible for the entire and complete conduct of each and every flight, from pre-flight planning to post-flight duties. There is no mention of medical crew members in that statement because it's not supported in the law. The issues that arise from conflicting policy are obvious. The successful personalities in this industry make that conundrum an efficient absurdity, but the situation is still illogical.

JH is a lot of chaff for not much grain.
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#13 Speed

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:54 PM

Mike,
As to UAVs, there's still a "pilot" flying the vehicle


Not the ones I'm looking at.
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Mike Williams CCEMT-P/FP-C

#14 Jwade

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Below is an excerpt from an anonymous pilot forum board.
Please note the following perspective is very raw and direct.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


"More hand-wringing by medical people:

Here's a thought: All you people pointing fingers and assigning blame, as well as all you others who're chastising them, and calling for prayers for your fallen comrades, really ought to find another way to make a living.

Go back to working on a floor, or in the ER, and stay away from helicopters. Those of us who are professional pilots understand that there are risks associated with the endeavor, and that any day can be our last. There are no guarantees that you're going home at the end of your shift, when your job is to occupy a seat in a machine that's traveling a high speed, hundreds of feet above the ground. Accidents happen in every occupation on the planet, and aviation is no exception.

For many of you, this is the first time in your lives you've gotten to be one of the cool kids. Walking around in your flight suit, catching admiring glances, having people tell you you're a hero . . . And you have no understanding at all of your peril when you climb into your aircraft. You want assurances of your safety. You're naive, and EMS vendors are complicit in your lack of understanding and education. For Christ's sake, there's even a "Survivors Network!" Can you people please get over yourselves?

Stop whining. While you're paralyzed with your existential angst, your pilot is taking a nap. If he's been flying for any real length of time, he's lost many more friends to aircraft accidents than you have; and even though it hurts every time, he learns whatever lesson is there and shows up to work the next day, knowing his number might be up as well."



I have to agree on some levels with this pilot. He makes a lot of valid points, his delivery needs some work, but, show me someone who does not have the same issue from time to time. I know i do! B)

I've met and worked with way too many med crew who only wanted the job because they thought it was cool and wanted to wear a flight suit. Most of those same people were ridiculously naive about aviation / safety / etc..........They think because they get to put on a flight suit, all of sudden they are blessed with some magical healing powers or something.....These are the same people who blindly follow, hide in their bunk rooms the whole shift, don't bother asking any questions, but are the first to criticize when a perceived fault has occurred regardless of the fact they know next to nothing about meteorology, aircraft operations, or FAR's..........Drives me crazy..........

What he said about the EMS vendors is absolutely spot on, I could not agree more.........

Aviation is a dangerous business, Helicopters probably even more so, due to the physics involved when the engine or transmission fails.........

JW
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#15 onearmwonder

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:11 PM

Yup, there are those of us who get in this profession because "we just wanted to fly". Come Monday morning following a fatality we armchair quarterback the whole incident. We offer our condolences. We say this and preach that about any and all shoulda/coulda/wouldas. And we try make ourselves feel better about the choice(s) we made about getting in this industry and even staying after such crashes. This pilot is right. We are quite full of ourselves. Which calls in to question our individual self esteem.

Trust is earned. Faith is given. There is only one pilot I fully trust in this business. That's one more than I need and one less than I want. Me ever fully trusting the one I want is now a non-issue for reasons not needed in this thread. Would I still fly with him? In a hearbeat.

If all you want to do is fly then go get yohr pilot's license. Otherwise do what you're trained to do; which is taking care of patients. And let the flying and not flying take care of themselves.


MSDelta we actually should arm chair quarterback every single incident. We should always scrutinize every single one of them. Obviously with respect. These are the few chances that we as team actually get to go through step by step and try to piece together what actually happened or could have happened so that we can at least have somewhat of a chance to prevent or mitigate or uncover anything that is or will lead us down the road to injury or death. And yes we can and must do this respectfully. Everyone should be getting together with their pilots and management right now so that we can decrease our incidents. The FAA or NTSB aren't going to do this for us. If you think so you're a fool. This is going to take groups like CAMTS, NEMPSA, AAMS etc..., but most importantly it will take us as individuals to change our current culture. So I ask you, what are you doing to change the culture of your service. Are you talking the talk and walking the walk? And remember "Culture" and "Safety Culture" are two different things. So I think this pilot is wrong... We actually could decrease our risks to non-existant levels if every single person strived for perfection in what they do everyday. Yes we will make mistakes because we are human, but not because of "This is just the job" it's because of our lazy, complacent culture. MS Delata we need to take care of each other... Individualism will kill the team! I hope I haven't misinterpreted your thoughts. If so I apologize and so correct me if I am wrong.

Respectfully,

Matt
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#16 Jwade

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:04 PM

MSDelta we actually should arm chair quarterback every single incident. We should always scrutinize every single one of them. Obviously with respect. These are the few chances that we as team actually get to go through step by step and try to piece together what actually happened or could have happened so that we can at least have somewhat of a chance to prevent or mitigate or uncover anything that is or will lead us down the road to injury or death. And yes we can and must do this respectfully. Everyone should be getting together with their pilots and management right now so that we can decrease our incidents. The FAA or NTSB aren't going to do this for us. If you think so you're a fool. This is going to take groups like CAMTS, NEMPSA, AAMS etc..., but most importantly it will take us as individuals to change our current culture. So I ask you, what are you doing to change the culture of your service. Are you talking the talk and walking the walk? And remember "Culture" and "Safety Culture" are two different things. So I think this pilot is wrong... We actually could decrease our risks to non-existant levels if every single person strived for perfection in what they do everyday. Yes we will make mistakes because we are human, but not because of "This is just the job" it's because of our lazy, complacent culture. MS Delata we need to take care of each other... Individualism will kill the team! I hope I haven't misinterpreted your thoughts. If so I apologize and so correct me if I am wrong.

Respectfully,

Matt


MATT,

YOU ARE WAY WRONG about MSDELTA..........HE IS A CRASH SURVIVOR!

Groups like CAMTS & the NEMSPA are not going to do jack sh$t.......They have ZERO regulatory oversight or authority to do anything. There entire existence centers around making recommendations for programs to follow. Some of those are based on sound science, some of them are complete and utter crap based on nothing more than someone trying to justify their existence on the board.


Furthermore, culture and safety culture are NOT different. Organizational behavior and culture is something i studied extensively in grad school, and the culture of an organization starts from the TOP and moves down through the rank and file. If the program director does not put emphasis on safety and gives his or her employees the tools and freedom to grow the culture, then, as expected the culture becomes malignant and short cuts start happening.....

The NTSB is the same way, they have actually proposed a myriad of safety improvements over the last 10 years, but, it is the FAA that has been dragging their feet about implementation. Further, the air-medical lobbyists ( on behalf of the programs) have spent millions to have these recommendations go by the way side. Programs like AEL have filed lawsuits against states that have unilaterally enacted tougher safety measures........

Bottom line: It's all about the $$$$$ today.

I think you owe MSDELTA a huge apology............
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#17 old school

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:21 PM

MATT,

YOU ARE WAY WRONG about MSDELTA..........HE IS A CRASH SURVIVOR!
]

I think you owe MSDELTA a huge apology............


Whatever, John.

Because an individual endures a highly unfortunate event doesn't mean that individual's statements are forevermore beyond question or debate.

I saw nothing in onearmwonder's comment that was disrespectful to MSDELTA, therefore, he has nothing to apologize for.
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bring it in for the real thing

#18 Jwade

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:08 PM

Whatever, John.

Because an individual endures a highly unfortunate event doesn't mean that individual's statements are forevermore beyond question or debate.

I saw nothing in onearmwonder's comment that was disrespectful to MSDELTA, therefore, he has nothing to apologize for.



Dude,

Did you even bother to read what he wrote? Calling someone a fool, asking him if he is " talking the talk and walking the walk".......

He said the answers were CAMTS for gods sake.......How freaking laughable is that idea........Let's pick an organization who self-invented, has no regulatory authority, has no oversight, and make their own rules.......Sounds a lot like Mitt Romney's campaign theme......We all know how well that worked out for Romney / Rove et al........ B)

It was disrespectful to make so many assumptions........and make the statements he did......I think surviving a horrific helicopter crash is more than walking the walk in my book.......The fact Mike still contributes here says it all!

We can agree to disagree now and save the tit for tat, since we rarely agree on anything.

Granted he did apologize in advance, however, he could have just not made the assumptions in the first place.

JW
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#19 MSDeltaFlt

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:34 PM

MSDelta we actually should arm chair quarterback every single incident. We should always scrutinize every single one of them. Obviously with respect. These are the few chances that we as team actually get to go through step by step and try to piece together what actually happened or could have happened so that we can at least have somewhat of a chance to prevent or mitigate or uncover anything that is or will lead us down the road to injury or death. And yes we can and must do this respectfully. Everyone should be getting together with their pilots and management right now so that we can decrease our incidents. The FAA or NTSB aren't going to do this for us. If you think so you're a fool. This is going to take groups like CAMTS, NEMPSA, AAMS etc..., but most importantly it will take us as individuals to change our current culture. So I ask you, what are you doing to change the culture of your service. Are you talking the talk and walking the walk? And remember "Culture" and "Safety Culture" are two different things. So I think this pilot is wrong... We actually could decrease our risks to non-existant levels if every single person strived for perfection in what they do everyday. Yes we will make mistakes because we are human, but not because of "This is just the job" it's because of our lazy, complacent culture. MS Delata we need to take care of each other... Individualism will kill the team! I hope I haven't misinterpreted your thoughts. If so I apologize and so correct me if I am wrong.

Respectfully,

Matt


Yes, you have misread my response. What I mean by "Monday morning quarterbacking" is this: the coming back to work the very next shift and questioning every decision, every action, and every inaction because you're scared and in reality yiure questioning your career choice. And if you notice after a fatal crash, you'll hear about crews declining a flight for "weather" when in actuality the weather was fine. Believe me. I've noticed this after my crash. Hell I've even do e this after others' crash.

The truth is the reason(s) why this latest crash happened could very well be impossible to determine because it might have been choice. If so, the FAA will imply "pilot error" simply because the pilot is ultimately responsible for all decisions on flying/not flying. But you, me, and everybody else knows, that if it was actually choice, who the real culprit is: all of them.

Pilots are extensively trained on flying. They know what they are capable of doing. They know what the aircraft is capable of doing. They know the accuracy of their weather reporting stations. And if they've flown that area long enough then they should know how the weather really works despite the forecasts. Why? Because any pilot worth his @#$& knows the difference between flying legal and flying smart. And with their extensive exeperience and CRM training, I haven't met a pilot het that will make a weather related "go flight" decision without involving the med crews.

Now we can all speculate this or that. But the true reasons why aircraft will go down are: mechanical, weather, and pilot error. And depending on the weather, it might still ultimately fall on the pilot for flying in it in the first place. And you and I bith know all three more than likely made that choice.

And sometimes it's a crap shoot. 99 time out of 100 you can make it fine. Unfortunately this wasnt that time. And THAT, my friend, scares the living hell out of a lot of med crews. Because pilots are in control of the aircraft. Med crews aren't. And they feel helpless. And in times like these they want to feel better about themselves about the choices the made, make, and will make aboht flying.

I left the industry because I have a fundamental disagreement with HEMS companies about flight generation. I'm not saying f that I won't fly again. I'm just saying that if I fly it will be under certain conditions that are not negotiable.

Let's not be scared yet, people. Let's not even get angry about all of the crashes and fatalities yet. We don't have enough information. So let's wait and see what the NTSB discovers. THEN we can get angry as hell, if that's what it calls for. Until then, make wise choices. Be a pt advocate. When it's time to fly, fly. When it's NOT time to fly, don't.

Do whatever it takes to make sure that you go home.
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Mike Hester, RRT/NRP/FP-C
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear -- Mark Twain

#20 Speed

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:49 AM

More hand-wringing by medical people = "I don't like my passengers analyzing what I do. In my mind they should just sit down hang on and shut up"


All you people pointing fingers and assigning blame, as well as all you others who're chastising them = " I don't believe accountabilityity"


and calling for prayers for your fallen comrades, really ought to find another way to make a living = "People should not mourn or show sympathy or honor fallen comrades"


Go back to working on a floor, or in the ER, and stay away from helicopters = "Helicopter crews don't care about losing co-workers. We have no emotions"


Those of us who are professional pilots understand that there are risks associated with the endeavor, and that any day can be our last = "If your job is dangerous you should have no feelings or remorse"


There are no guarantees that you're going home at the end of your shift, when your job is to occupy a seat in a machine that's traveling a high speed, hundreds of feet above the ground. Accidents happen in every occupation on the planet, and aviation is no exception.


You want assurances of your safety = "You should not expect assurance of your safety nor worry about it"


For Christ's sake, there's even a "Survivors Network!" Can you people please get over yourselhonoringMourning and honroing fallen comrades is wrong. Asking for help with depression, fear, or anxiety is wrong"


Stop whining. While you're paralyzed with your existential angst, your pilot is taking a nap = "We are not part of you team. We could care less about fallen comrades"


If he's been flying for any real length of time, he's lost many more friends to aircraft accidents than you have; and even though it hurts every time, he learns whatever lesson is there and shows up to work the next day, knowing his number might be up as well = "Dying at a pilots mistake is OK"
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Mike Williams CCEMT-P/FP-C