Jump to content


Photo

Army To Civlian Flight Medic


  • Please log in to reply
64 replies to this topic

#21 Gila

Gila

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 588 posts

Posted 29 August 2012 - 01:58 AM

I do not think I would agree with the statement regarding the Army disliking independent thinking. It is easy to take basic and advanced individualised training and make sweeping generalisations. However, much of the culture depends on individual unit and even squad assignments. Progressive units with good officers and solid NCO's can have an effective, foreword thinking culture in place. I cannot place enough emphasis on the role of the NCO. This is also why most of the 18 series MOS's are NCO dominated. The Army looks to solid NCO's for many of the special forces and overall leadership and educational roles. In fact, I credit virtually all of my success to my military experience.
  • 0
Christopher Bare
"Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo "

#22 Jwade

Jwade

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1405 posts

Posted 29 August 2012 - 03:52 AM

I do not think I would agree with the statement regarding the Army disliking independent thinking. It is easy to take basic and advanced individualised training and make sweeping generalisations. However, much of the culture depends on individual unit and even squad assignments. Progressive units with good officers and solid NCO's can have an effective, foreword thinking culture in place. I cannot place enough emphasis on the role of the NCO. This is also why most of the 18 series MOS's are NCO dominated. The Army looks to solid NCO's for many of the special forces and overall leadership and educational roles. In fact, I credit virtually all of my success to my military experience.



I was making a generalization overall.......and really could be said for any branch of the military......I fully understand there will be outliers within the ranks and units.

JW
  • 0
John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#23 onearmwonder

onearmwonder

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 571 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 06:54 PM

[quote name='Jwade' date='21 August 2012 - 12:28 PM' timestamp='1345573699' post='30093']
[/quote]

John I don't even think you can get your FP-C without your paramedic cert. I had to prove I was a paramedic before I could sign up to take a class. Maybe I'm wrong...

Matt

Maine,

Again, You have been HIGHLY misinformed about the FP-C exam and how much weight it carries in getting hired.........When i am looking through resumes, the ONLY thing FP-C does is help you get an interview....THATS IT! Nothing more.......Let me further qualify that by saying, even if you had FP-C, but ZERO experience as a civilian paramedic, you would not even get an interview..........

Your EMT-I experience will NOT count for anything. The bottom line is you are not a paramedic, and UNTIL you have your paramedic license and some experience to back it up, your chances of getting hired at a flight company are slim to none.......I know i sound brutal, but, I don't sugarcoat anything, I don't feel that helps anyone in the long term.

You mentioned FP-C when done with Army program, What you did not mention is if this program will also give you civilian NREMT-P exam certification? You will need this at a MINIMUM for most states. I can guarantee, you will NOT be able to get hired anywhere with just your EMT-I and FP-C. You would not meet state practice acts requirements for licensure, etc.......

As GILA stated, Critical Care Transport is much different than throwing someone in the back of a helicopter and burning JET A........For all of the reasons and skills he mentioned......Now, you throw in your lack of even basic paramedic street experience and you are at a SEVERE disadvantage over everyone else applying for the job......

I am an Air Force brat myself, so, I know all of the BS the military likes to brain wash it's people with, but, you are getting some horrible information from people in your chain of command............

The bias I speak of manifests itself for a couple of reasons:
1. Some civilians are against the military for XYZ reasons.
2. Some civilians couldn't hack it in the military.
3. Some civilians just are not educated as to what military medicine entails.

Again, not saying it's right or wrong, just some of the things i have seen since i entered EMS in 1992. Anyways, as I said before, please let us know if we can help you along the way.


This link is for the ACE SAT book by my friend Will Wingfield. This is the gold standard in the civilian world for passing the CFRN / FP-C exam. You would do yourself a favor by getting it and reading it front to back twice at a minimum.........Once you read this book, you will know where you stand once and for all.........

CFRN / FP-C Review Book
JW
[/quote]
  • 0

#24 onearmwonder

onearmwonder

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 571 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 07:07 PM

Maine,

All I can say is know as much as possible about A&P. Knowing A&P very well, being humble, and developing your critical thinking skills means way more to me. I know what I don't know which is why I am painfully teaching myself A&P finally.

Good Luck,

Matt
  • 0

#25 mainemedic

mainemedic

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13 posts

Posted 05 September 2012 - 04:28 PM

As it turns out, I will be able to get my civilian experience and fly national guard medevac at the same time. My leadership is looking into how the guard can fly civilian patients in our state. So I get tto do the same level of care but in a blackhawk not a tiny little A-star. Thanks for all the advise. To answer questions. Im in the Army program now and will graduate as a NREMTp then I will get my FPC. I'll have everything plus a little more than civilian programs require except the 3 years on a box of course.

I think its going to be great that we will get to fly civilian patients every day. That blackhawk is going to get peoples attention!

Gil, JWade, others, Im doing my best to learn what I dont know. I am learning the why as well as the how.

Dustoff, Im actually making us look good! What with the hate?

Thanks everyone.
  • 0

#26 old school

old school

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1121 posts

Posted 05 September 2012 - 04:46 PM

My leadership is looking into how the guard can fly civilian patients in our state. So I get tto do the same level of care but in a blackhawk not a tiny little A-star.

Im in the Army program now and will graduate as a NREMTp then I will get my FPC. I'll have everything plus a little more than civilian programs require except the 3 years on a box of course.

I think its going to be great that we will get to fly civilian patients every day. That blackhawk is going to get peoples attention!


:rolleyes:

Your initial post had me wondering whether you were trolling, but now it's rather obvious.

If you had been a little more subtle ad you probably could have kept me going a little longer....
  • 0
bring it in for the real thing

#27 scottyb

scottyb

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 248 posts

Posted 06 September 2012 - 04:11 AM

As it turns out, I will be able to get my civilian experience and fly national guard medevac at the same time. My leadership is looking into how the guard can fly civilian patients in our state. So I get tto do the same level of care but in a blackhawk not a tiny little A-star. Thanks for all the advise. To answer questions. Im in the Army program now and will graduate as a NREMTp then I will get my FPC. I'll have everything plus a little more than civilian programs require except the 3 years on a box of course.

I think its going to be great that we will get to fly civilian patients every day. That blackhawk is going to get peoples attention!

Gil, JWade, others, Im doing my best to learn what I dont know. I am learning the why as well as the how.

Dustoff, Im actually making us look good! What with the hate?

Thanks everyone.

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit....

Thanks for the laughs Lion's Maine....well played sir, well played.
  • 0
Scott Bild RN, FP-C

#28 Jwade

Jwade

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1405 posts

Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:06 PM

As it turns out, I will be able to get my civilian experience and fly national guard medevac at the same time. My leadership is looking into how the guard can fly civilian patients in our state. So I get tto do the same level of care but in a blackhawk not a tiny little A-star. Thanks for all the advise. To answer questions. Im in the Army program now and will graduate as a NREMTp then I will get my FPC. I'll have everything plus a little more than civilian programs require except the 3 years on a box of course.

I think its going to be great that we will get to fly civilian patients every day. That blackhawk is going to get peoples attention!

Gil, JWade, others, Im doing my best to learn what I dont know. I am learning the why as well as the how.

Dustoff, Im actually making us look good! What with the hate?

Thanks everyone.



Maine,

1. Your leadership has delusions of grandeur thinking they would ever be allowed to transport civilians on a daily basis. Just from a business standpoint the whole government ' Shouldn't' be competing against private sector companies. Throw in the military and this is NEVER going to happen. At MOST, the National Guard Medevac would be used strictly in a backup role for mass casualty, SAR, hoist capabilities, as they do now in most states.

2. The state EMS / NURSING offices would / will block this from happening.

3. Nobody is going to allow you guys to pick up run of the mill patients when you have ZERO exposure to an all age population, much less Critical Care Inter facility transports.......

4. Civilians will go apeshit if a Blackhawk was flying into local hospital heli-pads a few times a day, making a crap load of noise.........Civilians complain all the time about our A-Stars , EC-145's, and, one only has to look into Classic Lifeguard in Utah......They just got BANISHED from the hospital pad because of noise complaints from the neighbors....

5. With exceptions, A Blackhawk would not even fit on many hospital pads that I personally have seen in many different states. Nor, doubtful they would be able to hold the weight of a Blackhawk.

6. It's the 3 years on a box that will hinder your ever getting on with a civilian program.........Guaranteed.....

7. Now, I have no idea if you are trolling and trying to start sh$t or not, but, I can tell you, most people on here will bend over backwards to help anyone who is really interested in learning and not here to stir the pot, so, just keep that in mind for your future posts.........This is the Major Leagues, not High School ball, we are more than willing to help you get to your goal, just don't make us regret it, or, people will put you in your place very quickly.......

8. I would welcome your so called " Leadership" to jump on this forum and get some real answers..........

Good Luck with your program. Hopefully you will pass and able to attempt the NREMT-P and ultimately the FP-C.

JW
  • 0
John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#29 Jwade

Jwade

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1405 posts

Posted 13 September 2012 - 01:20 AM

As it turns out, I will be able to get my civilian experience and fly national guard medevac at the same time. My leadership is looking into how the guard can fly civilian patients in our state. So I get tto do the same level of care but in a blackhawk not a tiny little A-star. Thanks for all the advise. To answer questions. Im in the Army program now and will graduate as a NREMTp then I will get my FPC. I'll have everything plus a little more than civilian programs require except the 3 years on a box of course.

I think its going to be great that we will get to fly civilian patients every day. That blackhawk is going to get peoples attention!

Gil, JWade, others, Im doing my best to learn what I dont know. I am learning the why as well as the how.

Dustoff, Im actually making us look good! What with the hate?

Thanks everyone.



Here is an article for you from Bloomberg detailing how and why the transition to a civilian HEMS / EMS job is difficult for you military medics.......



Civilian Job Barriers for Military Medics

JW
  • 0
John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#30 mainemedic

mainemedic

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13 posts

Posted 14 September 2012 - 05:53 PM

Sorry I havent been around but this class is kicking my but. We been doing clinicals and ride time and its been awesome. Thanks for the article Jwade. It explains some of the frustration we feel over being discriminated against because we do more advanced things than civilian ems but cant get paid to do it. Sorry if I came across the wrong way to some of you. I just have problems not being able to do the things I got to do over there. I am realizing as we get into cardiology just how smart the average paramedic has to be not to mention a flight paramedic.
Studying to continue to race the reaper in the future. Hooah!
  • 0

#31 Gila

Gila

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 588 posts

Posted 14 September 2012 - 11:49 PM

Main, I believe you keep missing the point. You are not being discriminated against. Yes, you may be performing "advanced" procedures; unfortunately, the education required to safely perform and understand these skills is often not documented and not subjected to accreditation standards and verification. I learned how to suture as a medic during a one hour class given by our battalion PA. This amounted to little more than a "monkey see, monkey see do" situation. You can perform a psychomotor task without any appreciation of the complexity of issues surrounding said task.

Take intubation for example. Yes, you may have learned the monkey skill; however, intubation is a small part of a larger set of issues in the real world. What happens if the patient is ventilated aggressively? What will the change in Carbon dioxide do? How will this change the pH? What is the concept of pH, maybe there are multiple definitions and what one best applies in this situation? How will this pH change alter how proteins work in the body? Will this cause conformational changes in the haemoglobin molecule? Will that change haemoglobin's affinity for Oxygen and how Oxygen is on-loaded, offloaded and transported? What is a conformational change anyway? The frightening thing is, this is one of multiple lines of reason that one must consider. Also, to be frank, many contemporary paramedic programmes are not covering this material in any detail, and certainly not in enough detail to produce a provider who can appreciate the physiology and critically think through patient care. Honestly, the 1,200 hours mentioned in the article is an insignificant number compared to other paramedic and allied health educational programmes.
  • 0
Christopher Bare
"Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo "

#32 Jwade

Jwade

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1405 posts

Posted 15 September 2012 - 06:29 PM

Sorry I havent been around but this class is kicking my but. We been doing clinicals and ride time and its been awesome. Thanks for the article Jwade. It explains some of the frustration we feel over being discriminated against because we do more advanced things than civilian ems but cant get paid to do it. Sorry if I came across the wrong way to some of you. I just have problems not being able to do the things I got to do over there. I am realizing as we get into cardiology just how smart the average paramedic has to be not to mention a flight paramedic.
Studying to continue to race the reaper in the future. Hooah!



Maine,

Sigh.......As Gila stated, you are missing the bigger picture.......YES, you can do a select few things in the military that civilians cannot do on a box, ( This does not apply to HEMS), but, you guys are NOT being discriminated against! It is a simple fact, the military does NOT train you guys to handle an ALL age population, NOR, does it train you to handle much outside of trauma, airway, IV, etc............As you are finding out now with cardiology et al.........

Now, throw in the fact that you want to be a civilian flight paramedic when you are just learning basic cardiology, it's just out of the realm of possibility for you at this point..........As a civilian flight paramedic, you are going to need to know EVERYTHING GILA mentioned in the above post, along with blood gas interpretation, how to change vent settings based on those results, which vent settings do you change, can you change more than 1 thing at a time etc.........Can you handle a patient who is on multiple vasoactive drips, A-Line, Vented, Sedated, paralyzed, chest tubes, etc..........It's a far cry from what you are doing in the war zone.............Gila and I have been to Afghanistan, I've met many of the dustoff crews there, i know what they can do and cannot do.........

This is why the AirForce uses the CCAT teams on their C-17's to fly everyone to Ramstein!, The military medics are just not qualified nor educated enough ( With exceptions) to take care of those very complicated ICU patients. This is why there is RN & MD oversight on those transports.

Im sure you would do just fine on your run of the mill trauma scene flight, but, flying civilian HEMS is so much more than landing on a freeway to scrape someone off the side of the road........It's the 3am flight to the small town ER, where the MD is a family practice doctor who is semi-retired, the patient is sick as hell, ARDS, vented, completely mis-managed, etc........and now, it's your job to look at the lab work, blood gases, etc, and try to fix and keep the patient alive on your 45 minute flight back to a big city tertiary facility.........This is where Critical Thinking Skills are needed.........Not Trauma......Trauma is EASY..........

Just concentrate on learning as much as you can, and PLEASE, stop listening to whomever is giving you such horrible advice about the civilian world.........They are setting you up for unrealistic expectations and failure.........

Let us know if you have any questions as you continue through your program..

JW
  • 0
John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#33 Dustoff1259

Dustoff1259

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 70 posts

Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:57 PM

Maine, JWade has said it best in his last post. His last post should be printed and a copy given to yourself and every student currently in the army paramedic program currently going on in San Antonio, Tx. In your previous post you asked me what's with the hate. There is no hate but your ego needs attenuation. Again JWade nailed it. You have no clue now or if you become a paramedic the complexity of critical care medicine.
  • 0

#34 WyoJoe

WyoJoe

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts

Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:47 AM

I just read through this entire thread. I'm still shaking my head at the incredible ego and absolute disregard for anything anyone has said.
  • 0

#35 Macgyver

Macgyver

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 868 posts

Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:57 PM

flying civilian HEMS is so much more than landing on a freeway to scrape someone off the side of the road........It's the 3am flight to the small town ER, where the MD is a family practice doctor who is semi-retired, the patient is sick as hell, ARDS, vented, completely mis-managed, etc........and now, it's your job to look at the lab work, blood gases, etc, and try to fix and keep the patient alive on your 45 minute flight back to a big city tertiary facility.........This is where Critical Thinking Skills are needed.........Not Trauma......Trauma is EASY..........


my 2 cents is that most scene calls (without walls) are ALS with RSI. And only a small percentage of those are as the first responder. Most are a fast ride for a pt picked up from the back of a rig at a scene who has already been assessed and treated to the limit of the crew's (ALS or BLS) ability.

However the other 60% or so (on average - and not including "Well Lit Scene Calls"/"Rescue IFT's"/"Scene Calls With Walls" which are really scene calls) are IFT's where you are taking the pt from a safe environment with multiple medical assets and higher levels of care available to another such even better facility. Remember that - You are LOWERING their level of care during the transport - so need to be at the TOP of your game and at the limit of your scope/protocols etc in order to maintain or improve their chances of surviving their out of hospital transport experience.

When was the last time as a medic you handed off an ALS pt to a BLS crew for a ride to an ER? Would you even consider doing it (assuming lawyers didn't exist)?

The (distressingly more common) IFT scene calls are the best part of the job IMHO. You are the highest level of care (in reality not legally) on scene and can do much to save, or kill, the pt. Something the sending has already started to do..... YOU SIMPLY CAN'T DO THAT with what is being provided in this new program as an entry level military medic with minimal non-military non-trauma experience. Even vet's from PRT's etc and some of the flights that CCATT turfed to you will have a steep learning curve.

But it is a great start for the military and a course to strive to excel in. Just don't believe the line that you will be as good as a Cive RW medic, or ready to go out and get a Cive flight job, immediately after graduation. FP-C is just a validation of the ENTRY LEVEL knowledge base required. Experience is the key - get some and then you Will be marketable.

(BTW didn't anyone teach you to NEVER repeat NEVER believe a recruiter?)
  • 0
Ken BHSc, RN, REMT-P

#36 Jwade

Jwade

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1405 posts

Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:44 PM

my 2 cents is that most scene calls (without walls) are ALS with RSI. And only a small percentage of those are as the first responder. Most are a fast ride for a pt picked up from the back of a rig at a scene who has already been assessed and treated to the limit of the crew's (ALS or BLS) ability.

However the other 60% or so (on average - and not including "Well Lit Scene Calls"/"Rescue IFT's"/"Scene Calls With Walls" which are really scene calls) are IFT's where you are taking the pt from a safe environment with multiple medical assets and higher levels of care available to another such even better facility. Remember that - You are LOWERING their level of care during the transport - so need to be at the TOP of your game and at the limit of your scope/protocols etc in order to maintain or improve their chances of surviving their out of hospital transport experience.

When was the last time as a medic you handed off an ALS pt to a BLS crew for a ride to an ER? Would you even consider doing it (assuming lawyers didn't exist)?

The (distressingly more common) IFT scene calls are the best part of the job IMHO. You are the highest level of care (in reality not legally) on scene and can do much to save, or kill, the pt. Something the sending has already started to do..... YOU SIMPLY CAN'T DO THAT with what is being provided in this new program as an entry level military medic with minimal non-military non-trauma experience. Even vet's from PRT's etc and some of the flights that CCATT turfed to you will have a steep learning curve.

But it is a great start for the military and a course to strive to excel in. Just don't believe the line that you will be as good as a Cive RW medic, or ready to go out and get a Cive flight job, immediately after graduation. FP-C is just a validation of the ENTRY LEVEL knowledge base required. Experience is the key - get some and then you Will be marketable.

(BTW didn't anyone teach you to NEVER repeat NEVER believe a recruiter?)



I don't think believing a Recruiter is or was his issue, I think some officers up his chain of command are propagating the mis-information because they are simply un-educated on civilian life or too dumb to make an inquiry and get some solid facts to pass along to their subordinates. Either way, this guy got some horrible information, wether he chooses to drink the ARMY kool-aid or listen to us civilians, only time will tell. Some people INSIST on learning the hard way.......I simply don't understand this kind of logic.

JW
  • 0
John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#37 mainemedic

mainemedic

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13 posts

Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

Sorry I have been in the books hard but I am proud to say I am now a NREMT-P! It was not as hard as I thought it would be actually. We are on leave but start our critical care phase soon and that's where we get all the skills to bring us up to civilian flight crew standards and we take the fpc! I appreciate you alls input and support. Im excited about the new possibilities all this high speed training is going to bring me and I appreciate the opportunity to be the only flight paramedic in my entire states national guard ill keep you all updated!
  • 0

#38 TexRNmedic

TexRNmedic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 257 posts

Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

Sorry I have been in the books hard but I am proud to say I am now a NREMT-P! It was not as hard as I thought it would be actually. We are on leave but start our critical care phase soon and that's where we get all the skills to bring us up to civilian flight crew standards and we take the fpc! I appreciate you alls input and support. Im excited about the new possibilities all this high speed training is going to bring me and I appreciate the opportunity to be the only flight paramedic in my entire states national guard ill keep you all updated!


Maine,
are you attending the program in San Antonio? We have the first group of medics riding with us now and was wondering if I was going to see you here in the near future.
  • 0
Wes Seale
Houston , TX

#39 mainemedic

mainemedic

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13 posts

Posted 19 January 2013 - 05:31 PM

Yup! I'm in the second class. How are my fellow warrior paramedics doing?
  • 0

#40 old school

old school

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1121 posts

Posted 19 January 2013 - 09:28 PM

Sorry I have been in the books hard but I am proud to say I am now a NREMT-P! It was not as hard as I thought it would be actually. We are on leave but start our critical care phase soon and that's where we get all the skills to bring us up to civilian flight crew standards and we take the fpc! I appreciate you alls input and support. Im excited about the new possibilities all this high speed training is going to bring me and I appreciate the opportunity to be the only flight paramedic in my entire states national guard ill keep you all updated!


So the critical care phase includes 3-5 years of high-acuity EMS work on an ambulance or fly car?

That's awesome! Congrats on getting into such a comprehensive program.
  • 0
bring it in for the real thing