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#21 Jwade

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 04:32 PM

Will's books is certainly the gold standard according to the consensus around here. Orchid's book is not without it's merits. Her book offers in depth explanations and rational for every question, just as does Will's book. I have both and a buddy who just took the exam said that both books helped him out a lot. If you don't mind spending the money on both, they are both great resources.



While I have not read Orchids book, She was my Base Supervisor at AirEvac 9 in Casa Grande, Arizona. I can vouch for her, as she is a great educator and was a great supervisor who stood up for her crews. I have no doubt her stuff is pretty solid as we worked together on developing review stuff for in house FP-C / CFRN.

Here is a link for anyone who wants to check her site out.

Back to Basics FP-C / CFRN


JW
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#22 Dustoff1259

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:48 PM

For Old School: I agree with your oppinions but the BCCT seems to be fine with anyone who has a paramedic ticket and the money to take the FP-C. One partcular military unit has 60% of its flight medics FP-C certified and I know for a fact they do not have years of critical care experience.

I think its not a good idea like you but I see it happening.
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#23 citystreetmedic

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:57 AM

So I will chime in and probably take a beating for my opinion- but after all, this is a discussion board. I am a Paramedic with no flight experience. The only experience that I have in the flight industry is when I was able to do an internship with a flight program. But as I have discussed on here, I am hungry for further education and keeping up with the latest and the greatest. Furthermore, I think that as a provider, if I chose to take a critical care class- this wouldn’t necessarily mean that I would have to “practice” critical care every day. Would it be nice to apply what I learn- absolutely? Unfortunately, most ground transport programs around the Virginia area don’t have critical care ground transport services.

I personally am studying for my FP-C and hope to obtain it by the end of the summer. Again, do I have flight experience- not really. But I will have the knowledge and education to become a great flight paramedic when I do obtain a position. For someone to say that you shouldn’t obtain the title without the position – in my opinion is wrong. Education is free and it’s the best way to learn and better yourself as a provider. Why not be well rounded when you go for an interview? This will show that you have the dedication to the program and to the position by obtaining this certification.

I’m not sure what the answer is but I really think that if there are providers out there who want to become more knowledgeable, we should encourage this education, certification and advancement.




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#24 Jwade

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:21 AM

So I will chime in and probably take a beating for my opinion- but after all, this is a discussion board. I am a Paramedic with no flight experience. The only experience that I have in the flight industry is when I was able to do an internship with a flight program. But as I have discussed on here, I am hungry for further education and keeping up with the latest and the greatest. Furthermore, I think that as a provider, if I chose to take a critical care class- this wouldn’t necessarily mean that I would have to “practice” critical care every day. Would it be nice to apply what I learn- absolutely? Unfortunately, most ground transport programs around the Virginia area don’t have critical care ground transport services.

I personally am studying for my FP-C and hope to obtain it by the end of the summer. Again, do I have flight experience- not really. But I will have the knowledge and education to become a great flight paramedic when I do obtain a position. For someone to say that you shouldn’t obtain the title without the position – in my opinion is wrong. Education is free and it’s the best way to learn and better yourself as a provider. Why not be well rounded when you go for an interview? This will show that you have the dedication to the program and to the position by obtaining this certification.

I’m not sure what the answer is but I really think that if there are providers out there who want to become more knowledgeable, we should encourage this education, certification and advancement.





CityStreet,

With all due respect; Having FP-C before you land your first flight job does not make anyone " well rounded". Having interviewed many people, I can tell you, contrary to popular belief, it really does not help you all that much during an interview. It MIGHT HELP, land you an interview, but, that is where it stops...........All it means from an interviewers perspective is on a given day, you had enough theoretical knowledge to pass a standard multiple choice exam. Again, i really don't care......What i DO care about is that you are able to use critical thinking skills and any REPUTABLE company will find that out during the clinical exam portion of the interview.........This is what separates the average from the stellar.......

Again, contrary to the popular EMS belief that formal education is a waste of time, people who do have this education will impart a far different story to you. Well rounded IMO means having taken some liberal arts courses, a semester or two of critical thinking classes, english classes, college algebra, and everything else a formal education brings......People don't know what they don't know, until they know it, and then realize how incredibly stupid they were........( Me included at one time or another)...........

Do you honestly think once you pass FP-C, you're magically ready to walk into a SICU and able to start manipulating vent settings based on your own blood gas interpretation, manage 5 drips, chest tubes, etc........

Bottom line, in the programs I have been associated with and others i know intimately, having CFRN / FP-C without any experience to go with it, is really not looked upon with much reverence, so I tend to lean with Old School.....( GOD, I must be getting old to say that) B)

Your opinion is not wrong and is certainly respected, just a bit misguided due to your inexperience IMO..I would much rather see potential applicants spend their time and money on education that makes them a better person and actually well rounded.......

Good Luck
Respectfully,
JW
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#25 ForeverLearning

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:02 AM

CityStreet,

With all due respect; Having FP-C before you land your first flight job does not make anyone " well rounded". Having interviewed many people, I can tell you, contrary to popular belief, it really does not help you all that much during an interview. It MIGHT HELP, land you an interview, but, that is where it stops...........All it means from an interviewers perspective is on a given day, you had enough theoretical knowledge to pass a standard multiple choice exam. Again, i really don't care......What i DO care about is that you are able to use critical thinking skills and any REPUTABLE company will find that out during the clinical exam portion of the interview.........This is what separates the average from the stellar.......

Again, contrary to the popular EMS belief that formal education is a waste of time, people who do have this education will impart a far different story to you. Well rounded IMO means having taken some liberal arts courses, a semester or two of critical thinking classes, english classes, college algebra, and everything else a formal education brings......People don't know what they don't know, until they know it, and then realize how incredibly stupid they were........( Me included at one time or another)...........

Do you honestly think once you pass FP-C, you're magically ready to walk into a SICU and able to start manipulating vent settings based on your own blood gas interpretation, manage 5 drips, chest tubes, etc........

Bottom line, in the programs I have been associated with and others i know intimately, having CFRN / FP-C without any experience to go with it, is really not looked upon with much reverence, so I tend to lean with Old School.....( GOD, I must be getting old to say that) B)

Your opinion is not wrong and is certainly respected, just a bit misguided due to your inexperience IMO..I would much rather see potential applicants spend their time and money on education that makes them a better person and actually well rounded.......

Good Luck
Respectfully,
JW


Jwade since you have both CCEMTP and FPC after your name. As well as someone who values formal education perhaps you can impart some words of wisdom. I am personally of a strong belief that if you want credibility and real education you need to graduate from a place that offers real education and the person doing the teaching preferably isn't someone who holds one card more than you in his wallet but really has no formal education. I am also not a big fan of certificate 2 week classes, or online course etc. this is just my personal opinion/belief (my intention is not to offend anyone reading, this is just my personal belief)

My question to you do you feel that CCEMTP training program offers good education and relevant hands on practice that actually teaches you things related to critical care? What I am really asking is it worth it material/education wise if you compare it to say legitimate college level class coupled with lab, or is it more like bunch of medics doing this half assed power point, acronym slide show to add another card to your wallet?

Same applies to FPC?

I am all about solid education, so if I wrong in my assumptions please let me know what these programs/extra certifications do provide?


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#26 Jwade

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:57 PM

Jwade since you have both CCEMTP and FPC after your name. As well as someone who values formal education perhaps you can impart some words of wisdom. I am personally of a strong belief that if you want credibility and real education you need to graduate from a place that offers real education and the person doing the teaching preferably isn't someone who holds one card more than you in his wallet but really has no formal education. I am also not a big fan of certificate 2 week classes, or online course etc. this is just my personal opinion/belief (my intention is not to offend anyone reading, this is just my personal belief)

My question to you do you feel that CCEMTP training program offers good education and relevant hands on practice that actually teaches you things related to critical care? What I am really asking is it worth it material/education wise if you compare it to say legitimate college level class coupled with lab, or is it more like bunch of medics doing this half assed power point, acronym slide show to add another card to your wallet?

Same applies to FPC?

I am all about solid education, so if I wrong in my assumptions please let me know what these programs/extra certifications do provide?



Forever,

Great Question!

You just described the majority of pre-hospital education in this country. Until the Pre-Hospital world gets onto the same level as the Nursing, Respiratory, Medicine, PT, OT, Pharm, and start demanding increased educational standards, not much will change. All those groups banded together and started massive lobbying efforts in washington.......

Furthermore, we are the only specialty that will work for free! How many volunteer nurses, doctors, Pharmacists do you know?

Many of the administrators of pre-hospital companies have little formal education, and are only in the position because they have been there 20 years, so, they have no real incentive to go to school, see the value in school, which, ultimately, they fail to mentor or require these standards in their employees. So, it becomes a vicious cycle and revolving door of a bunch of uneducated morons. Unfortunately, my last Rotor Wing program had this exact type of leadership in the Program Director, and he just became a nightmare to work for, mass exodus of amazing people who worked there for many years, which directly led to the demise of what, once was one of the top programs in the country..........We used to laugh and make fun of him during monthly chart review, simply because he had no clue what people thought of him.........Pathetic.......

Now, on to CCEMT-P, FP-C......

CCEMT-P will only be beneficial to you if the class has strong educators doing the teaching. The course has become so commercialized today, which, in turn has degraded the worth of the course IMO..........I would be reluctant to recommend this course to anyone today unless, you really spend some time researching the course, where it is being taught, instructor backgrounds, clinical opportunities, etc...........If you can find a solid course, then CCEMT-P or CICP will be a great INTRODUCTION to critical care..........My CCEMT-P course was taught at a university over 10 weeks. 1 day a week, 8 hours a day, so this really gave us the time to read and understand the information, instead of just trying to memorize crap to pass the exam.....

What I would recommend you take is PNCCT after you find a good CCEMT-P course........I would only take PNCCT from UMBC in Baltimore with Liz Berg.......It was an AMAZING course....... OR, get with SerendipitySaki here on Flightweb and find out when he is teaching these two classes and take them from him............My first choice for PNCCT would be UMBC with LIZ though.....

FP-C has changed over the years as well since i took it 8 years ago........The test has been validated, it is scored much differently, there is no set passing score, the questions are still pretty much the same, and I still believe it is a worthwhile exam and credential. However, the caveat being what I discussed in my post above..........Can you pass this exam without having any CCT experience, absolutely......Will it help you get an interview, absolutely........will it impart some vast knowledge and make you an experienced critical care clinician.......NO..........You will still have to put in the time to learn so you don't kill anyone!

The bottom line after all that is, YES, i believe these are still beneficial under the right circumstances.....Spend the time researching the class / instructors before you spend the money and time. You want to make sure you get everything out of the class you can. The worst thing you could do is find the cheapest course being taught by someone who is just doing it for the money.......Way too many of them out there for sure........Formal education is always beneficial, the only people who say otherwise are those who do not have one!

Make sure you get with SerendipitySaki on here, he will give you some further insight and point you in the direction of some STRONG courses........

Let me know what questions you have.

JW
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#27 ForeverLearning

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:36 PM

Forever,

Great Question!

You just described the majority of pre-hospital education in this country. Until the Pre-Hospital world gets onto the same level as the Nursing, Respiratory, Medicine, PT, OT, Pharm, and start demanding increased educational standards, not much will change. All those groups banded together and started massive lobbying efforts in washington.......

Furthermore, we are the only specialty that will work for free! How many volunteer nurses, doctors, Pharmacists do you know?

Many of the administrators of pre-hospital companies have little formal education, and are only in the position because they have been there 20 years, so, they have no real incentive to go to school, see the value in school, which, ultimately, they fail to mentor or require these standards in their employees. So, it becomes a vicious cycle and revolving door of a bunch of uneducated morons. Unfortunately, my last Rotor Wing program had this exact type of leadership in the Program Director, and he just became a nightmare to work for, mass exodus of amazing people who worked there for many years, which directly led to the demise of what, once was one of the top programs in the country..........We used to laugh and make fun of him during monthly chart review, simply because he had no clue what people thought of him.........Pathetic.......

Now, on to CCEMT-P, FP-C......

CCEMT-P will only be beneficial to you if the class has strong educators doing the teaching. The course has become so commercialized today, which, in turn has degraded the worth of the course IMO..........I would be reluctant to recommend this course to anyone today unless, you really spend some time researching the course, where it is being taught, instructor backgrounds, clinical opportunities, etc...........If you can find a solid course, then CCEMT-P or CICP will be a great INTRODUCTION to critical care..........My CCEMT-P course was taught at a university over 10 weeks. 1 day a week, 8 hours a day, so this really gave us the time to read and understand the information, instead of just trying to memorize crap to pass the exam.....

What I would recommend you take is PNCCT after you find a good CCEMT-P course........I would only take PNCCT from UMBC in Baltimore with Liz Berg.......It was an AMAZING course....... OR, get with SerendipitySaki here on Flightweb and find out when he is teaching these two classes and take them from him............My first choice for PNCCT would be UMBC with LIZ though.....

FP-C has changed over the years as well since i took it 8 years ago........The test has been validated, it is scored much differently, there is no set passing score, the questions are still pretty much the same, and I still believe it is a worthwhile exam and credential. However, the caveat being what I discussed in my post above..........Can you pass this exam without having any CCT experience, absolutely......Will it help you get an interview, absolutely........will it impart some vast knowledge and make you an experienced critical care clinician.......NO..........You will still have to put in the time to learn so you don't kill anyone!

The bottom line after all that is, YES, i believe these are still beneficial under the right circumstances.....Spend the time researching the class / instructors before you spend the money and time. You want to make sure you get everything out of the class you can. The worst thing you could do is find the cheapest course being taught by someone who is just doing it for the money.......Way too many of them out there for sure........Formal education is always beneficial, the only people who say otherwise are those who do not have one!

Make sure you get with SerendipitySaki on here, he will give you some further insight and point you in the direction of some STRONG courses........

Let me know what questions you have.

JW



I am glad we are on the same page, and I had similar observations with regards to the administration. Most are EMT's with 15 years on the job and are clueless just as long you have the bare requirements. It seems as thought formal education is looked down upon in this field, whenever you see a paramedic position posting it would looking something like this:


QUALIFICATIONS:
GED REQUIRED
Paramedic State Certificate REQUIRED
Minimum 3 years ALS experience REQUIRED

College degree or relevant course work if you have may or may not be preferred. Usually this means we will not hire you!






I thought about going to Baltimore UMBC for CCEMT-P for next year, as they hold it during summer every year. The other place that is more local to me as I live in NY is NSLIJ this is their promo from 2010 : http://www.nysvara.o.../mar/100325.pdf
Things is if you call the place offering the course, I strongly doubt they would actually tell you the truth how they conduct their business. After all they are interested in collecting your money. Hence why my inquiry was is it worth it education wise.


If Baltimore is really worth the trip I would absolutely attend. SerendipitySaki provided me with book suggestion on here before, so good to know he actually does teach CCEMTP.



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#28 old school

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 02:25 AM

Did you need a thesauras for that big word? ;)


Actually, yes.

I thought I knew what it meant, but it's not a word I used often and I wasn't 100% sure so I looked it up.

If I typed the way I actually talk, the mods would delete most of my posts.
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bring it in for the real thing

#29 old school

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 02:28 AM

Here in northwest Fl where I am, having a FP-C certification before applying for your first flight job gives you a leg up as far as applying for some flight companies goes.


I don't doubt that's true. But it won't be that way for long.

Unless the IAFP/BCCTPC puts some standards in place, it's only a matter of time before EVERYONE who thinks helicopters are cool will have that credential.

And then it will "set you apart" about as much as CCEMTP does now.

Old School
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#30 citystreetmedic

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:58 PM

Okay- maybe I misspoke or was interpreted incorrectly. What I meant by my comment was that anything that you as a (provider) can do to make yourself more aware of your future surroundings (a critical care job) will make you a more rounded candidate. Clearly, I understand that if I were to have FP-C and CCEMT-P and all the other letters at the end of my name, that this does not make a great provider. I also understand that just because I grab a flight job and have FP-C, that now I’m a badass and can change vent settings and mess with drips. Not at all!



What I am saying is that there are many providers out here who are stuck on the bare minimums. The typical EMS mentality as one has said. But on the same hand, there are providers out here, such as myself, who want to learn more and get more out of their job, then just- “yeah, I fly for *** and I’m a flight medic/ nurse.” They want to do the best that they can and know what their talking about. Not just talk the talk but walk the walk. This takes education and experience- together. I’m not going to tell you how many providers have NREMT-P and etc who have just that. A card, a title and entry level knowledge. Put them into a critical thinking setting and they probably couldn’t get themselves out of a paper bag.



Some providers are out there looking for the knowledge and information they need to be successful. I have posted on here asking, not what I need to do to get a job but what makes a good candidate and a more rounded one. If I was to work for/ with YOU and showed up my first day, I wouldn’t expect you to have to explain in detail some of the “basic” critical care items that I should already know. General vent stuff- how to turn it on and adjust settings if needed. Not necessarily why to adjust or when to adjust but simple things. Medications- a big struggle for a lot of Paramedics. Pharmacology is not one of those things that are hit on very well in school. But if I or others study and learn some newer medications, and medications frequently used in the critical care setting, this will only help me and others in the long run.



This is why I believe that the critical care cert and FP-C cert (CFRN if you’re a nurse) would help a provider out to know some of the basic information. Any class for that matter. Think about some of the providers that are out there. If I, as a City Paramedic decided well, because I don’t intubate often, never hang Dopamine, and run a handful of traumas, that I don’t need to know my information. Incorrect! This is called complacency. But if a provider attends conferences, classes and additional education opportunities, he/ she might be more educated and will be able to place his/ her knowledge to practice. I respect you all who have obtained the CCEMT-P and the FP-C. I can’t imagine working so hard for a certification, only to have non- credible people take the exam, pass it and then think they are now qualified to practice as a flight medic/ nurse. IMHO these certs will make you a more knowledgeable provider from what you previously knew.



I just think that support (which there is a lot on this site) from others and their experiences, is beneficial to us younger providers who don’t have those experiences yet. Things that you might have received from another paramedic or preceptor in the past that helped you get to where you are today. A quote from C.S. Lewis: “the task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles, but to irrigate deserts.” Great topic by the way! J



Be Safe!


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"If you do what you've always done; you'll be what you've always been"

#31 Dustoff1259

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 07:54 PM

Ok! How about this? Has anyone on here used Orchid's book to actually pass CFRN/FP-C. The previous question is reasonable given the title of the thread I started.
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#32 Jwade

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:24 PM

Ok! How about this? Has anyone on here used Orchid's book to actually pass CFRN/FP-C. The previous question is reasonable given the title of the thread I started.


Dustoff,

YES, many of the crews at my old program used Orchid's review materials to pass CFRN / FP-C we put together at our base. I was there about a year, then PHI made the requirement mandatory for all crews. Orchid was my base supervisor at AirEvac 9, then she moved into the AirEvac educator role for a couple of years, during which, she finalized the review course.

Again, I have not read it, but, I can and will vouch for her......She is like me......more old school type and values education......

JW
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John Wade MBA, CCEMT-P, FP-C, RN

"Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition, they somehow already know what you truly want to become" Steve Jobs

#33 onearmwonder

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:01 AM

I have both books... Both do thurough job. The differences are that they are techy and more scientific in different areas. Use both... Compare them... Also when you get done with a chapter compare them with the chapters in your ASTNA and AAOS books. Study hard...

Matt
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#34 trynottobarf

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 12:00 AM

I got "Back to Basics by Lopez not too long ago. I like the in depth rationale explained for the sample exam questions. Has anyone else used this book and got good results? Thanks for any replies.


Good Evening,

Getting wayyy back to your initial question. I did in fact use the Back to Basics book to assist me in studying for the FPC. I took the test a few months back and was successful in passing....This it what I will say about the book. Some will agree, some will disagree. As you know, the test has a rotating bank of questions and they utilize different forms of the test throughout the year. My test was heavy on pediatrics, neo, and physiology. I have heard different tests are heavy on different topics. Now, I read, re read, and re read B2B. I took the tests over and over and over until I had literally memorized the entired book. This was certainly the tool that assisted me in passing. I will say approximately 50% of my test included multiple questions, and variations of questions from the book. To top that off, I would say 50% of those questions were verbatum. I hope this doesn't screw people in the future by saying this. There are certainly pros and cons to this. Yes I passed the test, am I an expert on the material? No....am I confident I know enough about the material to make me a competent FPC? Yes. On top of utilizing B2B, I watched a few of Will Wingfield videos. I thought his information was fantastic! A little over the top, but fantastic. I will certainaly say that by watching and studying his videos, you will have the depth and knowledge to be successful in this field. Not to discount the test, it is definately the hardest I have ever taken.....ever! It's not to be screwed with. But I will say, when the man behind the counter prints up you results and you see you passed, the elation is amazing. Poor bastard didn't see it coming but he got a hug from a total stranger who is a guy hahahaha. So, good luck, study hard, and being a newbie here, everyone is on point with their opinions and knowledge.
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#35 mg/kg

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 04:08 PM

To answer the initial question, yes it did help. And yes, it was a great resource. I passed the FP-C my first time around. However, it was a difficult test and you should use Orchid's book as a learning guide. What I mean by that is, how to read the questions and not just jump to the answers because you think you know it. The questions are worded differently and if you rush, you can miss a lot of questions that you probably knew. Also, use the information provided in the books as a starting point for further reading, research, and learning. Good luck on the test.
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#36 Carpe Diem

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 03:19 PM

I've seen Will's information and am very familiar with it and own/have Lopez's book "Back to Basics". I used Lopez's book as a way to get my mind ready for "test questions" in the CFRN arena. It was the only book I used to prepare. My background as a RN is purely critical care, with many years in EMS before that.

With that, as a CCRN and a paramedic, I felt that I just needed to figure out how to take that information and apply it to a a CFRN test. I used Lopez's book for the flight phys and operations/ CAMTS information on it. It was good enough to get the job done. Many of the questions on the exam were similar. My short answer for what I think of Lopez's book, Back to Basics: it's cheap and it's good enough.

My long answer for what I think of Lopez's book, Back to Basics: Do not use it as a critical care reference. My impression of it is best explained by saying it was like having an ED RN explain critical care to a ICU RN. The book itself needs to be peer reviewed, as there are a few inconsitencies to it and some conflicting questions and information. (Perhaps something to consider for a later edition) It does a good enough job, but I would value Will's material as a true critical care resource. Lopez's book did a good job of preparing my mind to think and answer to the CFRN levelfor the exam.

I bought it becuse it was cheap and I already had plenty of other clinical resources available at home to cross reference when needed. If I were an ED RN I'd used Will's information as it is more well rounded, accurate, and thorough. If I were an ICU RN with a good handle of critical care, I'd get Lopez's book.
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Kris


#37 pcbguy

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:07 AM

Here in northwest Fl where I am, having a FP-C certification before applying for your first flight job gives you a leg up as far as applying for some flight companies goes. No it does not make up for time in field experience, but it is very favorably looked upon when applying. At least that is my experience with it.


Where in NW Florida are you?
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