Jump to content


Photo

Flight Medic Upgrade Announced


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 Dustoff1259

Dustoff1259

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 70 posts

Posted 12 July 2011 - 09:00 PM

According to the Army Times, The path to become a Flight medic will change and morph into a three phase pipeline

Phase One: The flight medic course as it is now.

Phase Two: A six month Paramedic Course

Phase Three "Critical Care Flight Paramedic Training" at Brook Army Medical Center. (not clear if they meant FP-C)

Im all in favor of upgrading the training but Im also very concerned about what negative consequences to patients could come from unleashing someone with a six month paramedic course and "critical care flight paramedic training ".

Its better I guess in the long run because its been proven that EMT basics with NO experience at all are in fact detrimental to casualty outcomes. It is a sad point that it took a decade to figure out that flight medic training was substandard.

Dustoff 1259
  • 0

#2 lostmedic

lostmedic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts

Posted 13 July 2011 - 12:30 AM

well, this is a step forward. I will never forget when i was told in the Navy that Paramedics are not needed in DOD. All of the military members are 18 and can run 3 miles in 18 mins. Why do they need all that cardiology training? At that time, the Navy almost did away with inflight medics, Navy (and Marine Corps) wide.
Now the Army is instituting Paramedic training for thier flight medics. Hopefully the Navy will follow suit.
  • 0
Morgan

#3 Dustoff1259

Dustoff1259

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 70 posts

Posted 13 July 2011 - 01:44 AM

I don't know what the Navy will do but that is a dim view to have of Paramedics in my oppinion. What I saw recently in one medevac unit was Navy "enroute care" nurses flying with Army medevac crews and doing Paramedic level skills...this is a shame that the Army lets Navy nurses practice in place of it's own flight medics. I hope this new training will cut most of that kind of silliness out.

Dustoff 1259
  • 0

#4 insen...

insen...

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 335 posts

Posted 13 July 2011 - 11:24 PM

To be TDA, trauma is really not rocket surgery, especially when most of the patients are otherwise healthy (comparatively).

I'm well aware of the bureacracy of the military, having endured it myself, but I understand an emphasis on trauma.

I would have to worry about providers who couldn't master relevant trauma skills in three phases of training.
  • 0
"Miserere stultus qui dicit latin." Contemporary French Linguist Insenescence

#5 Gila

Gila

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 588 posts

Posted 14 July 2011 - 02:02 AM

This is a significant leap forward, considering the fact that Army flight medic training was an additional four weeks following primary MOS training versus six months and presumably some change with this new programme. Is there a link to the article by chance? I visited the flight medic home page at Fort Rucker and did not find any news on the changes after skimming it over:

http://usasam.amedd....description.htm


This is what I find via an ATTRS search:

https://www.atrrs.ar...scc/course.aspx
  • 0
Christopher Bare
"Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo "

#6 Dustoff1259

Dustoff1259

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 70 posts

Posted 14 July 2011 - 01:17 PM

Gila: I havent found a link to the article but it appeared in this week's Army Times. The article was an announcement that training would be improved and gave noting more specific than: The already exisiting flight medic course, a six month Paramedic course and a phase they termed "Critical Care Flight Paramedic" training.

Insen: I agree but just as in the civilian world, not every flight is trauma. Pediatrics, interfacility critical care, and even cardiac patients are the norm for flight medics these days.
  • 0

#7 insen...

insen...

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 335 posts

Posted 14 July 2011 - 02:33 PM

Understood, but even pediatric trauma is usually no more complicated than adult trauma (I have worked a both an adult FN and pediatric FN) and was a corpsman (USMC). I would speculate that cardiac patients are a comparatively small percentage of their overall volume, and even that is generally straightforward.

During my military days, I encountered far more cases of vicious derm and psych problems that required evac than cardiac events. I was never in a combat zone, but almost everything was trauma, environmental, and burns.

If the cardiac volume is escalating, then I'm curious about modern fitness standards. If these are contractors, then I think they are victims of the risk...not to sound harsh, but I tend to think of military medicine as being designed for soldiers.
  • 0
"Miserere stultus qui dicit latin." Contemporary French Linguist Insenescence

#8 BackcountryMedic

BackcountryMedic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 441 posts

Posted 14 July 2011 - 03:47 PM

I'm an outsider looking in, so excuse my ignorance. As an educator, I do run into a number of military medics wanting to work EMS with little recourse but to take a completely new paramedic class (no real credit for skills and experience). It is frustrating that the military medic education is so limited and doesn't transition into the civilian world much at all.

Will the new 6mo "paramedic" training meet the NREMT (or any other civilian) education standard?
  • 0
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - Patton

#9 lostmedic

lostmedic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts

Posted 14 July 2011 - 05:50 PM

Will the new 6mo "paramedic" training meet the NREMT (or any other civilian) education standard?


13 years ago, I was just such a medic. a skill I learned a long time ago was doing Chest tubes at the age of 19, and can't do them at all anymore. I am truely lucky I was lucky enough to get my NREMT-Basic before I got out of the Navy. otherwise, I would not have gotten anything. the state of MO said (13 years ago)I could sit and take the EMT-B test, or I could sit and take the Nurse Aid Certification.

I have heard that New Mexico and Nevada were working on laws that would allow Military Medic's to sit for NCLEX RN exam. I don't know if it made it or not.

now, to answer your question, i would bet the Army, will make sure that the class meets NREMT standards, if that is thier goal. I am certain if the Air Force has anything to do with it, they will make sure it meets NREMT. I am no where near as confident in the Navy. if you guys didn't know, all enlisted medical training (combat medics of all services) are starting going to the same school at Fort Sam Houston. the Navy already sends thier Inflight/SAR/Casevac Corpsman to Fort Rucker for the Flight Medic, inflight Aidman course.

and now, my last little favorite thing, is when a Navy Sar Corpsman told me, after he had been on both a Casevac tour in Iraq, an Air Ambulance Tour in Kuwait, that he did not need to go to Paramedic school, because he had attended ACLS and PALS.

I hope the culture changes too.
  • 0
Morgan

#10 Dustoff1259

Dustoff1259

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 70 posts

Posted 14 July 2011 - 07:38 PM

Insen: You have some good points but dont just conclude that contractors are the only population with cardiac problems. There are thousands of fat national guard and reserve timebombs deployed.

Lostmedic: Unfortunately, there are plenty of 68w medics that think ACLS and PALS is all thats need to be a Paramedic. Although I don't have the facts I think The new program will be NREMT credidentialed. As of today I heard a rumor that the "Critical Care Flight Paramedic" training is actually to gain FP-C! If this is so we now will have six month cram course paramedics taking the FP-C exam that was created wiht the intention of testing and crediting EXPERIENCED Flight Paramedics.

This just keeps getting better.
  • 0

#11 lostmedic

lostmedic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts

Posted 14 July 2011 - 07:44 PM

it reminds me of what JW says, you don't know, what you don't know.

at least the attitude of the new Navy Corpsman was very respectful towards me when I went to Iraq. I have been a Paramedic 8 years at that point, and I got a lot of respect I would not have otherwise have gotten. however I would argue, that I also had the most emergency medicine experience there too.
  • 0
Morgan

#12 SerendepitySaki

SerendepitySaki

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1176 posts

Posted 14 July 2011 - 09:12 PM

ummmm yeah. just gonna let that one go....


....and was a corpsman (USMC)......


  • 0
LET THE WILD RUMPUS BEGIN !!!!!!
Sean G. Smith, RN-Alphabet Soup

#13 lostmedic

lostmedic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts

Posted 14 July 2011 - 10:05 PM

well, There is more than one Marine Corpsman hanging around here. :-)


ummmm yeah. just gonna let that one go....


  • 0
Morgan

#14 insen...

insen...

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 335 posts

Posted 14 July 2011 - 10:31 PM

Does the fact that the corpsman who were assigned to the USMC are actually 8404 Navy corpsman need to be explained every time?

The passive-aggressive characteristic will apparently always run strong in transport providers.

And the ad hominem will apparently never be recognized for it's total abandonment of logic.
  • 0
"Miserere stultus qui dicit latin." Contemporary French Linguist Insenescence

#15 SerendepitySaki

SerendepitySaki

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1176 posts

Posted 14 July 2011 - 11:27 PM

irony. apparently, your strong suit. B)

Does the fact that the corpsman who were assigned to the USMC are actually 8404 Navy corpsman need to be explained every time?

The passive-aggressive characteristic will apparently always run strong in transport providers.

And the ad hominem will apparently never be recognized for it's total abandonment of logic.


  • 0
LET THE WILD RUMPUS BEGIN !!!!!!
Sean G. Smith, RN-Alphabet Soup

#16 Dustoff1259

Dustoff1259

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 70 posts

Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:48 PM

Now now folks: Im the cynical scoundrel here lets not get off on tangents about Corpsmen when the Army is already providing us plenty of good material to be critical and/or supportive of.

For example: Knowing the mindset of the average 68W combat medic, how are they going to pass an exam like FP-C if that is required to be a flight medic? (If this becomes a requirement) Will the IFPA creat a dumbed down military version of their exam? The financial incentive is there to water down a hard test just to get military flight medics through if the government is paying.....
  • 0

#17 insen...

insen...

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 335 posts

Posted 16 July 2011 - 12:24 AM

irony. apparently, your strong suit. B)


That doesn't even make sense.
  • 0
"Miserere stultus qui dicit latin." Contemporary French Linguist Insenescence

#18 BackcountryMedic

BackcountryMedic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 441 posts

Posted 16 July 2011 - 02:24 AM

Along the lines of this thread: http://www.emsworld....8&siteSection=1

More training/education is bound to be a good thing for military medics. I hope they do something that translates into the civilian world, such as NREMT certification. I'm skeptical a new paramedic can pass the FP-C fresh out of school. If that happens the BCCTPC needs to take a hard look at it's test. It will become meaningless as a benchmark.
  • 0
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - Patton

#19 RonBolen

RonBolen

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10 posts

Posted 16 July 2011 - 11:38 AM

I don't know what the Navy will do but that is a dim view to have of Paramedics in my oppinion. What I saw recently in one medevac unit was Navy "enroute care" nurses flying with Army medevac crews and doing Paramedic level skills...this is a shame that the Army lets Navy nurses practice in place of it's own flight medics. I hope this new training will cut most of that kind of silliness out.

Dustoff 1259


Dustoff1259,

The Navy En Route Care Nurses are not doing paramedic level skills, they are performing critical care skills. The Navy AND Army En Route Care program is a specially trained Navy and Army critical care nurse taking care of ventilated post surgical or ventilated post trauma patients to include pediatrics. We carry (I am an instructor for both the Army and Navy ERC courses and am currently serving with a unit overseas) different drugs (paralytics, anesthetics, etc) and ventilator management that are not in the scope of practice of a Flight medic. I tought at Fort Rucker as well as the Navy ERC course and most flight medics (I can attest to this because of who I am currently serving with) are emt-B's with 7 months training. Both the ERC program and the new guidelines for the Flight Medic curriculum are serving one purpose, to bring the best care to the warfighter and our casualties. The other mission that has never been addressed by the military until now is the humanitarian missions which include pediatrics.

So, hopefully this clears the water a little for you and explains the "silliness" you refer to.
  • 0

#20 Gila

Gila

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 588 posts

Posted 16 July 2011 - 02:02 PM

I think it's a bit early to start drawing lines and start infighting. Thus far, everything I've seen has been nebulous and ill defined, full of anecdote. I'll wait and see how this evolves. The paramedic portion does not seem to be a particularly big problem. You are looking at making a paramedic in 10 months when considering the 4 month primary MOS course. This is comparable to many civilian programmes. I'm not going to get into the paramedic education debate, but it does not seem to stray significantly from what civilian paramedics are doing, for better or for worse.

The critical care stuff is even more nebulous at this point and I simply cannot comment. Will the programme be phased and require flight medics have experience at their unit before taking, will it simply occur right after the paramedic phase, what pre-requisite requirements will be in place, how long will it be, what is the curriculum, will there be a clinical component and what credential will be tested if any? Too many questions for me to debate one way or another.

However, I will continue to maintain that this is a good thing for the Army, considering the fact that the current flight medic programme is four weeks long.
  • 0
Christopher Bare
"Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo "